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qwerty, you suggested that “kiruv” started outside of Chabad. I just added a couple of facts to that.
pekak, of course it is not a valid contract, as I said “forced on them”. I never heard an answer to this.
YYA> WRT Chabad Tefillin stands,
You don’t have to focus just on that one event. It is not as if Chabad just doing that. It is part of their trying to find and touch non-observant Jews.
Your opponent logically extends his “I do not care” towards these Jews to “caring about them is wrong”. Sad.somejew, thanks, this teshuva deals with some other issues – whether it is appropriate to live among people who not keep shabbos, it is also does not discuss the issue of tinokos. You mentioned Rambam. So, hilchos mamrim 3:3 says this applies to people like Tzadok & Beitos and then defines tinokos as an exception to that:
אֲבָל בְּנֵי אוֹתָן הַטּוֹעִים וּבְנֵי בְּנֵיהֶם,
There is nothing here about killing them slowly, but rather bring them to teshuva and Torah with words of peace.
פִיכָךְ רָאוּי לְהַחֲזִירָן בִּתְשׁוּבָה, וּלְמָשְׁכָם בְּדִבְרֵי שָׁלוֹם, עַד שֶׁיַּחְזְרוּ לְאֵיתַן הַתּוֹרָה.Note that Rambam here talks about generations of karaims, who would be more learned in Chumash than modern day non-O or non-observant Jews.
Am I misinterpreting this short paragraph incorrectly? Do your poskim disagree? And please post explicitly about this case, not about general opinion about mehalel shabbos.
Also, I notice that you are trying to bring sources close to your heart – Brisker, R Elchonon. I am very interested to learn what they say on this topic, but they are no substitute for normative halacha accepted by large swaths of Jews – Rambam, S’A, MB, R Moshe …
ZSK> even with automation, the “system” is managed by Jews who make decisions based on economic savings rather than Pikuach Nefesh
I am not sure I understand the argument: Jew defines the algorithm before Shabbos.
There is a related issue with automatically driving car: it makes decisions based on whatever algorithm is there. For example, in a crash, it may benefit the owner of the vehicle v. other drivers, or even select to crash into a person with better insurance coverage or less years left to live. Are you responsible for allowing this or shuold you rather rely on your own, imperfect, judgement.
ZSK, use of electricity is not the same as dealing with public order.
I hope someone looked into how modern electric grid works. I presume most of it can be automated, so it is a question of metziyut – whether it is. Also, possibly you can establish a “kosher” station that puts enough electricity into the grid? In US, you can “buy” electrons from different companies, even as they are delivered over the same grid. You can also get solar panels, except you might be empowering their chinese producers that can come back and enslave you later.
pekak> That *might* have been commendable if they actually wanted to support Torah.
well, this “Issachar/Zevulun” contract is indeed forced on them. But I believe tzodaka is one of those mitzvos that give the person zechus even when he is not doing it with full heart, just based on the results.
qwerty> NCSY began in 1954. while the first Chabad House was established in 1969.
As I quoted before, R Soloveitchik acknowledged work that Chabad was doing earlier than Chabad houses – and he did not see any fault in their work.
2nd-to-last rebbe would send chassidim to a town for several years and then they would come back to the community, while the last one innovated settling in the community.yankel> idea of the ‘veltishe’ kiruv orgs … did absolutely not ‘come from’ habad
I think it did. It is true that there are always yehidim and organizations that tried to either directly addressed non-observant public or those who would become non-observant without the intervention, such as Rambam, Mendelsohn [don’t want to start a war about him, but it would be unfair to skip[, R Hirsch, R Salanter, R Kook, R Soloveitchik. The latter: not just in his writing, but in his high-school push and re-org of YU to mass-produce rabbis who can lead out-of-town congregations, and he contrasts this approach to those who contend to lead the frummer in Brooklyn. He also acknowledged the heroic approach used by Chabad under the 2nd-to-last Rebbe.
ZSK> Rav Goren is not a Rabbinic authority to the Charedi public
indeed so. I heard first-hand testimony about R Goren giving a visiting class in a yeshiva and then a student got up and demolished every part of his presentation. R Goren looked very happy and said that he gave this class several times already and nobody said a word! He asked for the student’s address, saying that he’ll review the arguments and send a response. The rav who told this story considers R Goren big talmid chochom based on both his writings and this episode.
ZSK> more expansive codes – Rambam, Rif, Rosh, etc. – address the subject of Moshiach
right. I am just saying that in your list, there is a need for careful analysis – to what degree such a topic should be expected in the source based on much related zman Moschiach/political material is there. You have to be very erudite to make an argument from absence to make sure what is not there 🙂
and you can still be wrong: an unrelated but cute story. A T’Ch asked R Salanter what is the source of his mussar teachings. RYS: Gemorah. T’CH – no it is not in the gemora! [that is how we know he was a T’CH!]. RYS: It is in MY Gemorah.
yankel> the peshara was the inclusion of the words ‘tsur yisrael’ which the religious understood as referring to God.
right. But was it understood some other way by the non-religious leaders? They knew their Tanach … most were not tinokos shenishba. The argument is not that different from US first amendment: how can the state impose religion on those who do not agree. If there were a possibility to establish a smaller, but viable, religious state – maybe that should have been done, but there was no such possibility.
Also, I think the final draft was written by a small group that did not include Aguda rep, but Mizrachi R Maimon who insisted on mentioning Hashem, and Ben Gurion suggest the Tzur compromise. R Maimon put the Shem near his signature or something like that. But maybe they were texting others also. I am sure there are books written about this topic.
more qs:
how do people choose to become member of peleg or stay with the mainstream? Do they ask their local rov or do they, H’V, decide on their own?
how do members react to gedolim who strongly disagreed with peleg?yankel> Those AAQ’s comments reveal his ignorance of the basic facts of the israeli scene ….
the point of the discussion is to build a full logical argument by combining different facts and viewpoints. Combining an ad hominems with an ad silentium makes it into an absurdum: you don’t know the person and you don’t know why that person chose to exclude some information. Here is how you actually argue:
Moshe> gedolim who hold differently than R Lando … Peleg
Right, I heard the reference. This raises a lot of questions:
Does it mean that only Peleg are demonstrating?
Is there anyone who has standing over whole community?
We had here before Steipler’s letter to NK and I had a feeling that Steipler was trying to convince, including by flattering, rather than direct. Are there any communications between groups going on now?
Many charedi leaders, or at least followers, express their opinion about RL and non-religious sector, often implying that disobedience to their shitah is against the Torah, etc. Is there more respect to different shitot in this case?somejew> most tinokos shenishbu today are mumarim.
In my understanding, these are mutually exclusive categories. Could you please suggest sources for such statement and, even better – ask a shailo of your ruv, so that you get a reply from a source you respect lhathilah. I am interested in hearing this opinion.
in an attempt to give you some unbiased starting point, here is Gemini:
q: can a person be both at the same time or are these categories exclusive
a: In the framework of Jewish law (halakha), these two categories are mutually exclusive as legal statuses, but they are overlapping as descriptive behaviors.
To put it simply: a person cannot be both a tinok shenishba and a mumar for the same action because one category exists specifically to cancel out the other.
If they are a Mumar, they lose certain communal privileges (e.g., their testimony is invalid).
If they are a Tinok Shenishba, they are viewed as an oness (someone under duress/accidental) and retain their full legal standing.Discussion of mumarim donning tefilin at chabad houses is noreshkeit. Most people whom chabad addresses are tinokos shenishba.
I once encountered someone who claimed to be an apikoires – learned when he was young and based on some interactions we had, became nostalgic for some learning. I first sent him to a litvishe rov, who said – you can come to the class on the condition that you’ll stay quiet. This did not work. Then, I sent him to chabad shaliach who spent some time discussing their differing worldviews without any problem.
ZSK, a question on your argumentum ex silentio (argument from absence) – it is a strong one, but the question is – at least some of these sources talk about daily halakha and do not necessarily talk about zman moschiach or other potential future events that do not look as a factor in the daily life of the readers. Rambam, for example, focuses on a simple Yid, omitting all references, etc.
Good point on R Akiva – were he familiar with the 3 oaths, he would at least address it somewhere in a braisa – did he?
If I can generalize by driving I see in heilicke towns in NJ, I would not want charedi drivers unless their yeshiva teaches them middos of driving.
israelidoc> It will never happen b/c the idea of a chareidi following orders / instruction from anyone other than a Torah authority is an anathema.
yes and no. There is a video on front page with R Landau saying that bochurim should not be at the demonstration and that situation is not simple and leadership is “doing the best they can”. So, who are all these people demonstrating while ignoring/or being ignorant of the instructions?
My theory is that this is a history-driven sociological trap: leadership established separate communities (Rambam’s deserts in the words of Chazon Ish), had to use separatist ideology to protect them (and this worked well both in Israel and US), and now these ideologies took over the crowds beyond the temporary measures they were, and leadership is unable to change them, in part because the protection is based on “we are right, and they are always evil”, but also because they can’t go against the load crowds. Emes is the biggest loss of this complex process.
Front page has a video of R Landau saying that bochurim should not be at these demonstrations. So, those who were there either did not bother asking the gadol, or went against his instructions? If so, what are their expectation – what zechus is protecting them?
this latest link says that Finance ministry is sending money to charedi schools without receiving knesset authorization. Are you posting this in a hope that the schools will do the ehrliche thing and return the funds for knesset approval?
Hashmonaim were wrong taking over malchus, being Kohanim and not from Yehudah. Did any of tannaim mention this when dealing with any of those kings or queens? I think they were mostly dealing with the current events of the time.
The discussion of 3 oaths was relevant 100 years ago. It is not now – when we have a state. See what Hashem says to Yonah regarding the kikayon.
It may be of historical interest to see who was right or wrong, but this is also limited – there were much bigger mistakes made 100 years ago, underestimating danger from Commies and Nazis to Yidden in Europe comparing with relative safety of EY and goldene medinah.akuperma> An argument can be made that a Melekh Yisrael (which by definition is a usurper, since he isn’t from Beis David) who goes against Torah, can and should be overthrown
Not so fast. See discussion between Herod and Bava Ben Zuta in the beginning of Bava Basra – rabonim were very reluctant to talk against the government even when it was extremely bad.
akuperma> By drafting, and arming, Hareidim who see the zionist state as lacking legitimacy, you are giving weapons to those who will turn on the medinah.
Do peleg really represent ajority of charedi public? Probably, a majority of them will quickly learn how to live with the Army without comproming their principles – as long as the leadership let them do it.
> how many balei tshiva have been led astray with faux-Chabad’s faux teachings
how many became baalei teshuva due to you and your community efforts?
ZSK, thanks a lot for looking it up! I am glad the story is confirmed. Would anyone know what charedi poskim say about such matters – either early on or now.
guteyid> Set up a independent self-defense course and you’ll have many (C)hareidim join.
a gut point! Not sure why you expect someone else to set it up – the charedi community should do it on their own. Can start by policing people who attack buses and army events. Then, extend to protecting their communities.
Just> Everyone would be obligated to become a doctor in order to save lives. Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l famously rules that no such obligation exists.
Self-protection from attackers is different from being a doctor, and obligation would be different. And even when one is not obligated, we have a lot of people who are trying to be super-frum in mitzvos. Maseches Taanis describes a doctor who was visited by yeshiva shel maaleh more often than Abaye and Rava (despite his bloodletting methods were not the most effective ones – surely a fact known b’shmayim!). I would presume many would like to follow in his steps.
some> as Rav Elchonon Vasserman said in the name of the Chofetz Chaim: the zionists are amulek.
this seems to a new claim to me. Does REW indeed say “in the name of Chofetz Chaim”? Before I saw only references to REW himself.
And given how much Chofetz Chaim published, it would be good to confirm this in his own writings. I did not see such so far.
Katan> LOL. As per halacha?
I have siddurim that have prayers for Emperor Franz Josef and for Czar Niklai Alexandrovich (different siddurim, not at the same time :). Ponevezh rav used kal vahomer for having Israeli flag from having Lithuanian Republic flag. So, my kal vahomer is much stronger. So, you should also have prayers asking Hashem to have President and Prime Minister favor the Jewish people.
CTL, I am not arguing against your personal experiences. I am just saying that your personal experiences should not colour your opinion about world events. And at least you have some personal reasons, but what about all others?!
It is reported but R- support for action against Maduro jumped from 50% to 75% in several days due to the success. It is understandable that some people were not sure this will work (I was in this group), but liked it when it happened. At the same time, number of D- supprt jumped by a factor of 2!! from 6% to 12% …. how is it possible that 90% of D-s are against something so basic as an arrest of a dictator? Not all D-s are commie supporters – you are not.
I don’t know if you knew well your Senator Joe Lieberman. He would probably have approved – but that only 10% of D-s are capable of supporting a good thing just because the other party did it – it is very sad.on military prison without glatt kosher salami: could their friends bring food to them or this was not allowed?
Also, rabbonim who advised their students to risk prison should be responsible for the quality of the accommodation. They should either bring the food themselves (R Arye Levin used to do that during the mandate) or negotiate with the prison authorities in advance: “Shalom, this is Rav ploni, I am planning to advise my talmidim to violate a law, is it possible to deposit some glatt kosher salami in your freezer?”
> “simcha613” vs. HaGaon HaRav Shlomo Yedidya Zafrani shlita:
I understand that R Mazuz (for example) holds that both are true, so here it goes.
ZSK> the fact that you’ve reduced the vast, multi-faceted corpus of Jewish tradition to a single, 20th-century anti-statist polemic
what I found interesting in this discussion that R Elchonon was a close student of Chofetz Chaim and they were writing in the same time period. So, what explains such contrast between REW loud position and Ch.Ch. not taking the stand? Did they ever discuss this between each other?
somejew> a tinok shenishbu – like every jew – is not עמיתך if he breaks any of the three re-lines I mentioned as that is the definitional Torah standard of עמיתך
Could you please consult your rov, and relate to us what he said. Usual definition of the tinok is the person who does not know anything. He is raised by Russian communists or Indian gurus. He does not know what shabbos is. He is shogeg. In fact, there is a discussion whether he later on needs to bring karbonos for things he did by mistake, without knowing.
ZSK> Secularist Zionism is, Religious Zionism isn’t. The State exists, deal with it – ideally recognizing what HKB”H has given us (by saying the prayers for the State and IDF per halacha
to be fair, specific R Kook’s prayer is not without a controversy. Maybe charedim could settle on a pareve version at the level of Der emperor Franz-Jozef.
As it is, I feel uncomfortable when there are tehilim after davening in black-hat shuls. Some ended, some continued after recent hostilities stopped. Are they saying it for the chayalim, or are they saying it for draft evaders? Even as my Rav paskened that “there is nothing wrong saying tehilim with other Yidden”, I am not sure what to do. As a comparison, karbonos are invalidated by a wrong machshovah.
On a related note, some charedim positions are for public consumption but not necessarily held universally (as we see from some posters here). When I explained my kids, who are in a moderate-charedi school, that “EY” is sometimes used to avoid saying “medinah”, like in “I am traveling to EY”, they were first appalled at the thought and denied that this is possible, then admitted, then started noticing that some of their teachers are saying stam “Israel” in the class, but not when in public.
I would wait for more info. It could be that ICE agents were frustrated by others obstructing them, then this lady happened to be in a wrong place, panicked in response to instructions, first did not move when told so, then started moving when told to get out of the vehicle, the agent upfront sees her backing into agents behind without seeing exactly where everyone is …
yedl > Kiruv Rechokim
a good point. This term makes it explicit. Just saying “kiruv” makes it sounds a little nicer – but to whom can “kiruv” be applied if not to rechokim?
It is like saying “differently abled” applied to “disabled”, not “gifted”, although direct reading could mean the latter.I don’t know whether LR or anyone else made a distinction. Does anyone know?
qwerty> About 15 years ago, I attended the Jewish National Retreat, Chabad’s annual convention.
I am worried for your unhealthy lifestyle. Look, I am not fond of NK, so I don’t go to their shuls and conventions. It is ok to get into a discussion once ina while, but why are you torching yourself.
> However, this doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t work on the disenfranchised. They’re able to reach people who are out of the purview of mainstream Judaism.
Nothing stops others from doing the same, except that they have other priorities or consider this beneath them. To put this in halachik terms: there are Hashem’s lost sheep in front of you. You are obligated to return them to the rightful owner. If you consider this too lowly for you, then you don’t have to, R’L.
CTL,
so you prefer to live in the world where our enemies influence countries in the world while we live according to the rules? There is mitzva to surrender.If US was able to capture a dictator, improve chances for democracy in the country, improve US standing in geopolitics, decrease standing of various reshoyim – what makes you upset? See an article by our French brother H Levy in today’s 1/7 WSJ – he destroys such attitudes in much better English than mine. He has his own concerns, of course. There is no op-ed without concerns.
HaKatan> Once the Zionists invaded and flagrantly violated everything they could, they turned the entire region and beyond into a nightmare for Jews.
I might have missed your answer to this question: the entire region, much larger than EY, was a nightmare for most groups after WW2, comparing with North America and Europe (west of USSR). Is this Zionist fault they all got mad? If not, then would you claim that charedim would continue living in peace in the middle of Nassers/Assads/Saddams/Ayatollahs/ISIS/PLO/Huthis? (and in the numbers we have now).
somejew > @always_ask_questions
> I don’t know what you might mean by “secular”. I would rather this conversation be Torah-centric (sorry zionists)IDK, some (other?) jew used this word “secular” in his accusations, I was exactly trying to get some clarity! Thanks for switching now to “Torah centric” approach!
in which case the baseline of who is called עמיתך is:
1) michalel shabbos b’farhesia
2) generally keeps common mitzvos (kosher, mezuzah, tahars mishpuche, tzniyos, mechitza, etc)
3) believes in the 13 principals of faithChofetz Chaim and I 🙂 hold by captured tinokos. This is pretty clear in cases, say, Reform Jews in US and non-religious Jews who came out of Russia: they are not familiar with basic Torah concepts and they also might think that they are familiar with them.
Israeli Jews are a harder case, as one might think that by the virtue of proximity and lashon, they are not ignorami. But culture is still culture: they live among “their people”, their knowledge of religion is superficial, in part acquired by observing Yidden in unfamiliar kaftans marching by and paying no attention to them. Also, there are multiple sub-cultures out there. You seem to be focused on “Zionists”, but as Riva and others told you – there are no real anti-religious Zionists left out there – there are anti-religious secularists; there are partially religious pro-medinah Jews who are not attached to any anti-religious ideologies; there are religious Zionists with whom we don’t have to always agree, but who are doing fine on your 1-2-3 list.
To sum it up, I don’t think it is easy to characterize everyone, but my estimate is that number of non-amitecha is pretty small, B’H.
There is a report about Moetses meeting where there were apparently differing opinions about how to respond to the draft law. Can someone please clarify what the differences are?
ZSK> [RZ] hey rediscovered the parts of the Torah that the author has conveniently forgotten in the comfort of his Exile—the laws of Yishuv Ha’Aretz, the laws of Jewish sovereignty, and the laws of Pikuach Nefesh on a national scale.
Maybe you can help me clarify whether this is real. I heard this from a RZ rabbi – but I am very suspicious of any ideological bias – so I am not sure whether this is story is 100% yashar. So, according to him, early on in Israel (or even before the medinah) there was a problem (maybe in Haifa, not sure) – where the thieves figured out that it is much easier to steal cars on shabbat. So, mishtarah asked a shailah of an “old school” rabbi, who advised them that there is no pikuach nefesh, but there is some tzr for the tzibbur – so it is asur to do miduaraita, but possible to violate midrabonon – so the police should use bikes instead of cars to pursuit the thieves. This was obviously not helpful. So, a RZ psak is to allow mishtarah to do their job in order not to have all cars in the city driven to Lebanon.
yankel> the other orgs accompany the person during the entire journey whereas habad concentrate on the mitsva actions
(and qwerty, I think, saying something similar).I don’t think this is the right separation. Their tefilin and candle campaigns may be the most visible for you as you pass the Time Square (and you probably should not be there in the first place!). Plenty of Chabadniks in communities and college campuses deal with their students over time. And plenty of kiruv organizations take students for a year and then have limited contact with them after that. And plenty of senior Rabbis are OK with a short interaction with a person who asks a shailah in person or in writing… in Tanach, a goyishe general needed a dermatologist advice and got an appointment with a navi, no problem.
yedl> I don’t think Chabad ever used the word Kiruv.
Indeed, and LR explicitly disapproved it. I didn’t like this word also before finding out his position. Just because your parents sent you to a cheder, and his parents did not send him – does not make you closer and him further away from Hashem. Look at Michtav Eliyahu, essay about Sulam Yaakov – yes, different people start at different levels on the ladder, but they are all united with a challenge and desire to go up and danger of going down.
I think “kiruv” originated with Ohr Sameach and Aish, fine institutions as they are, but they probably needed a powerpoint slide to explain the concept to the donors. Just saying we need to save drowning Yidden somehow did not raise the funds …
anon1m0us, thanks for looking up Chofetz Chaim on tinokos hanishba.
flaiming> current economic setting which makes it difficult for any family to have children.
the general tendency is that the richer the society is, the less children they have. Policies that pay more for children help, but very marginally.
China is especially interesting – they rescinded their “one child” policy – but it already became a cultural norm.
ZSK> suggesting that if Jews had simply remained “quiet” and “submissive”, their enemies would have treated them with kindness.
your opponent (or whomever he learnt from) are in a difficult psychological situation: the assumption that his group theories were fully, and the only ones, correct does not fit the facts that people who followed those theories were persecuted (unless they faced reality and were able to save themselves at the last moment), and those who were opposite them – somehow had some successes. So, he needs to redefine what “success” is and who to blame – and he will continue doing so. I think you, and everyone else, made their point. Let’s talk about something else interesting!