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yankel> ujm’s proposal to ‘give’ EY to the US , is a total non starter
maybe not whole EY, just Gaza and part of PA? US can have a territory without giving it citizenship (state status) until they develop institutions and Congress (Senate?) accept them. This is how except first 13 states joined.
Lol.
flamingo refuses to answer any of the 17 simple questions
but still accuses the jews of ‘foreclosing critique’ …..
I recommend her for honorable mention in the Guinness Book of Records under the subject of “Biggest Hypocrite” …..
/////////////////Okay I went and did it. And you’ll still find a way to call me a narrow minded person parroting what the media feeds me. My friend I ask you have you ever even questioned the realities fed to you from birth?
Anyway here you go. For you, or anyone else reading. May there be peace on this world very soon and the end of genocide done in our name and otherwise.
1] how many innocent german children died in world war two ?
was that genocide ?
if not , why not ?…….
Well 1st off are you considering the German Jewish children who were genocided as “germans”?
if so, many were, not sure the number but the Nazis genocided many german children from jewish families
if your asking about non-jewish german children, i would imagine there are many who died, but not neccesarily from genocide neccesarily.
of course other groups in germany were genocided beyond just the Jews in WWII, Romani, Disabled,
and while not exactly by UN definition genocide, we can throw in there Gay and communist germans were specifically targeted for their identities and beliefs.Genocide definition (UN 1948): Intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.
if your talking about the “german children” who died at the hands of the Allies, these were more casulties of war than genocide as per definition above.
What differentiates this from genocide is the intent. And this is vital when understanding what is happening in Palestine.
Just because Israel isn’t using the most efficient methods (gas chambers etc.) doesnt mean it isn’t targeted destruction of a people.Intent from Israeli Government:
– Comments interpreted as comparing Palestinians to “human animals” — language that the commission viewed as dehumanizing and facilitating violence
– Statements by political and military leaders framed in religious or absolute terms, such as invoking the command to destroy Amalek, which can be understood as “total annihalation”
– A letter by a top official to soldiers described in the UN report as stressing a kind of “total annihilation” approach, which the commission treated as an indicator of intent to destroy a group.Even if there’s no written “genocide plan,” the report argues that the only reasonable inference from a consistent pattern of policies and actions is genocidal intent. This is sometimes referred to in international law as making intent the only plausible explanation for what has happened.
The report highlights these patterns:
– Deliberate deprivation and siege conditions
A long‑term blockade restricting food, water, medicine, fuel and humanitarian access to Gaza, which severely harmed civilians.
– Scale and nature of mass harm
Very high civilian death tolls, including large numbers of children, from repeated bombardments and operations
– Destruction of vital infrastructure
Widespread destruction of homes, hospitals, schools, water systems, and other infrastructure indispensable to civilian survival.
– Measures affecting births
Destruction of reproductive health facilities (such as IVF clinics) and other services that affect the ability of the population to reproduce — which the UN commission treated as potentially fitting one of the Convention’s categories.………..
2] given that hamas – and the majority of so called palestinians supported by many millions more outside palestine,
fanatically want israel and its jewish inhabitants to literally disappear from the face of the earth
why do you describe people dying in israel’s defensive wars as dying to ‘make space’ for it ?
why are they not considered as dying to defend their own families existence ? ……In all this, your assumption is that because they want to “wipe us out” that we have a right to self defense.
1st the current populations of Jews in israel were not in need of this “self-defense” from Hamas prior to the establishment of the state of israel.
Were they in danger in their own countries from other threats? Yes many were (and many were only in reaction to the creation of the state, but thats a whole rabbit hole not even neccasary here). Jews being in danger, doesnt mean that the answer was to plop a colonial ethno-nationalist enterprise in the center of the middle east and to displace the indegenous population that is in their weay. The answer could have been (and was for many) to find saftey in countries that will make space for jewish people (ie. the USA where the Jewish people have thrived by almost all measures).For the small number of Jews that did live in israel continuously, I don’t think the best answer to protect them was too move all of their neighbors and establish a state around them. Many of the indegenous Jews of Palestine, as well as other Jews from the middle east were actually discriminated against by the Zionists. This endevor was certainly not done in the name of their protection.
Also in regards to Hamas and supporters of the Palestine movement wanting to “wipe us all out”
1st off Hamas does not represent the viewpoints of majority of Palestenian.
Secondly, they do not want Israelis to “literally dissapear from the face of the earth” nor do Palestenian supporters across the globe, including myself.
What they want is freedom for their people, and ability to access the land that was horrificly stolen, and to be able to have lives outside of the open air prison set up by the IDF and funded by the US.Food, housing, healthcare, equal rights on the land.
You’ll say they rejected every peace offer. LOL.
No peace offer since the creation of Israel has included an offer that eliminated Jewish supremacy on Palestenian land.
Israel does not have a “right to exist” if that means that it will be a place where Jews have more rights than non-jews.
No land should have a right to exist that prioritizes one people over another. Particularly if those people are non-natives (or their decendents).
Obviously, Israel is not the only offender in this spce, the US has horrificly stole land and genocided the indegenous people.
The only difference is the activeness of the genocide. The US is NOT currently genociding the Native Americans. That doesn’t excuse the harm, nor erase other forms of current systemic oppression and more subtle violence, but it is in a different category of urgency when compared to what is happening in Palestine right now.Personally I am arguing for one state one vote with reperations.
would some people need to move to make space yes, but certainly Jewish presence can remain in the region alongside Palestenians and others of all races and religions, with equality for all.3] why are you blindly parroting the distortions by the biased media ?
why are you ignoring the fanatical armed men hiding in between those innocent children who are the real criminals
who are the ones who have the blood of those children on their hands ?
The real criminals? Blood on their hands? You mean Netanyahu and the IDF? Who are committing genocide.
………You accuse me of parroting, while you literaly parrot the logic of whatever echochambers you live inside of, you are guilty of the same.
What I’ll ask is a perspective shift. Why do we “need” israel to exist to protect the Jewish people. We are currently safe in the US. We are wealthy, succesful, integrated into the culture, government etc. I get that this was the case in Germany that many Jews felt safe. Feeling “more German than Jewish” but that doesnt mean the solution is to have a country.
A potential solution is to educate on genocide, and create an atmosphere of acceptance of all people regardless of race,ethnicity, religion etc. Currently that is not what the Jewish people are doing as a whole. We are teaching Jewish children to hate Arabs (when I am litterally an arab-jew and i am not alone). We are teaching Jewish children to hate Muslims, and overall to look down on Non-Jews and even on Non-religious Jews. For me the hatred towards goyim and non-practicing yiddim is a form of racism and is deeply innaproriate.
Education, love, acceptance, these things stop genocide, not literally doing genocide.
Whatever Hamas does, does not erase the damage the IDF and the Israel project has done, and continues to do.
This is not meant to justify Hamas’ behaviors, but instead to hold the IDF accountable for their behaviors. Claiming this is all just “fighting hamas” without the context of the Nakba and the active oppression of the Palestenian people is missing vital parts of the picture.
IF i removed you and your family and your communitty from their neighborhood, and stuffed you into an open air ghetto, would you not want to fight back? How would you feel if a group of your friends tried to fight back and yes did some awful things in the process, would it be okay if your captors came and murdered you and your childfren for it? Try for a second to imagine how it feels to be removed from your home, your land, and living in an open air prison. This shouldnt be too hard, the Jewish people have exprienced opression throughout their history. The only difference here, is we are on the side of the opressor now. At least in this case. Its quite clear given the history and power differential.
……..
4] why are those fanatical men not offering the usage of their hundreds of kms of tunnels to those innocent children ?
is it because they are hoping for [!] those innocent children to be blown to bits ?
and hoping for flamingOTD to write heartwrenching ‘humane’ posts about those evil zionists ?………….
Are you claiming that it is Hamas’ fault that they arent offering enough places to hide from Israeli missles?
And not blaming the ones shooting the missles. Do you see how your not even considering that Israel holds any culpability in this.
The idea that Hamas wants more Palestenian kids to die to help their cause is a sickening Zionist lie, ironically sounding very much like the “blood libels” used against Jews for millinea.5] why are you prepared to be the prop and the useful idiot in the hands of those very same criminals
who are the ones who have the blood of the children from their own community on their own hands
and are counting on you to do their bidding ?
…………Not sure whos bidding im doing. You are clearly doing zoinist bidding right now. And potentially the bidding of the US imperial war machine.
I do not support religious extremism. That includes religious motivated genocide. That includes the Zionist state. I do support equality and human rights. For all humans. Not just the ones we like and consider “chosen.”
…..6] what happens to a jew who walks by himself into most so called ‘nongenocidal’ arab towns in the middle east ?
what happens to an arab who walks by himself into most so called ‘genocidal’ israeli towns in the middle east ?
can you give an honest reality based answer ?
after this answer — with honesty and reality , which side is the real genocidal one ?
……….
Depends on the town for the Jewish person. Not every “arab town” is anti-semitic (again I am arab so please stop using this as a slur).
Look it certainly not safe to be openly Jewish in many Muslim majority coutnries with Islamic rule embeded in law.
I’m not saying anti-semitism doesnt exist. I’m saying the solution to anti-semitism isn’t the state of israel. its education, care, connection, love. Hate and violence to not create less hate and violence.You know what isn’t safe? Being a Palestenian in a country with aspects of Torah rule embedded in law.
Hell even in their “own” towns and spaces Palestinains are actively in danger of violence from the IDF.
Just because its governemnt approved and sactioned doesn’t make it okay nor does it erase it from a context of violence.
………..7] anywhere between 600000 and two and a half million German civilians died during the 1940’s as a result of the Allies war against Germany .
Is that genocide ? ? ?……………
No, as i said it lacks intent. Ironically Israel has a lot more in common with Nazi germany, then the analogy your trying to make… Israeli deaths at the hands of the Palestenians are not neccesarily genocide.…………..
8] do you recognize the established fact that …. there are arab ministers , supreme court judges and MK’s in israel ?
so why do you repeat the lie that israel is racist ?
…………..We can have a black president, and black billionaires that doesnt erase systemic racism in the US.
If anything it can serve to enable these systems “see we are equal”
when for the majorities this isn’t true.Like saying theres a chance people can get rich if they play the lottery.
In plain terms, Israel is a state that prioritizes Jewish life over others. That is ethnist/racist.
And historically it has treated its arab jewish population awfully, and these sentiments still do live in the country even in subtle discrimination against sephardis in the frum world, but certainly on larger scales as well.
This is not unique to Israel. The US is horrific in terms of actual living its supposed values of equality.
What is unique to Israel is the law that prioritzes Jewish people.
………9] do you recognize the established fact that jews come from all diverse ‘races’ . brown, white, black and yellow ?
so why do you repeat the lie that israel is racist ?
………..
The initial european Zionist settlers certainly were racist, considering arab Jews “bad human material”
As I mentioned these seeds of racism certainly still live in the culture.Beyond that the word can be tricky to name given Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity and maybe even a race is complex.
But it clearly prioritizes Jewish life over Non-jewish. And certainly discriminates against Palestenian ethnicity.
………..10] considering the context of hamas hiding behind civilians coupled with international denial of civilians the natural and essential option
of running away
why do the Arab and leftist hypocrites who block their escape not have their innocent blood on their own hands ???…………
The surrounding arab nations do have blood on their hands
I think their decisions are heavily influenced by geo-politics, including fear of Israel/US retaliation.Wether or not Hamas existed, Israel would still be attempting to expand its borders and take more land away from the Palestinian people and create a country that actively erases their indegenous connection to the land, and creates discriminatory laws that prioritize non-natives (Jewish settlers) over the actual people native to the land and desperately in need of that access to land. (the fact that I as a US citizen have such easy access to citizenship and land in israel is deeply sickening considering just how safe I am here, and just how desperately the need for that access is for palestenians.
……………
11] Were the majority of deaths civilian in the invasion of Iraq ??
Were the majority of deaths civilian in the War in Afghanistan ??
…………….I do not condone the US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. What the US has done (and continues to do) is horrific. The US has funded this current genocide in Palestine. I blame them more than the israeli governemnt, more than the IDF honestly. I believe we are acting as a puppet for the US. At best we have mutual interest, and even in this lens the US is a horrific enabler of the genocide.
…………..12] Why is the fact that the vast majority of deaths in gaza are civilian , any proof that israel does not target terrorists ??
is it not possible that civilians are killed because of hamas hiding and mingling with them ???
do you have real proof that this is not the case ??
…………….
The names of the children i mentioned were not terrorists target casualities. These were people mistaken for dangers based on their ethnicity and murdered. Not unlike what happens in the US. The difference here is not just based on the side-effect casulties of Israel targeting terrorists. Its on the system of harm that has created and continues to sustain this situation. Israel existing as a state that prioritizes Jewish lif is actively oppresive towards anyone else who would try to live in that land. That would already be bad, what makes it a crime is that people that used to live in that space most recently were displaced, and opressed for generations.…………
13] Why does hamas not give shelter to civilians in their many hundreds kms long tunnels ???
could it be that civilian casualties is a desired outcome for them ???
…….
You already asked this. I can’t imagine these tunnels would be much safer. And none of this takes away the blame from the IDF for sending the missles.
……14] if many millions of people would support nazism , would you fall in line , simply because that would be “the perspective of the world” at the time ????
……..
I am not supporting the perspective of the world. If anything the powers at be support Israel.
I make my decisions on ethics and values. I was raised deeply zionist. I spent much time deconstructing this belief system.
If anyone is the puppet parroting beliefs they are too tied to it is you.Question for you…
Have you ever even questioned the beliefs you were raised with?
……..15] compare arab population growth in palestine from 1860 – 1940 with arab population growth in syria , jordan and lebanon …
communities with same cultural characteristics , how come there is such a huge difference in population growth ?
the answer is arab immigration towards palestine … lured there to benefit from huge zionist investments ….
so why do they merit the unearned moniker of ‘indigenous’ ????
…………Okay you are literally describing the Zionist agenda and immigration of Jews from around the world.
Being indigenous does not require that every ancestor lived there forever. It means that a significant, continuous community lived in a region for generations before modern borders and nation-state definitions. By that definition, Palestinians are considered by most historians and anthropologists to be indigenous to the region.
………….
16] the so called ‘palestinians’ NEVER had an independent country
not under caliph omar from 638 who was muslim
not under the mamelukes from 1239 who were muslim
not under the ottomans from 1516 who were muslim
not under the jordanians and the egyptians from 1948 who were muslim
why did their own muslim ‘brothers’ not grant them a country ??
…………
I cannot answer for the sins of the past of groups i do not claim to support nor agrree with.
Nor do these sins justify the violence of the present day.
I do not think having a “country” is needed to be considered an indegenous people.
Native americans did not “have a country”
Nationalism is a relatively modern invention.
………….17] did you hear the true tales of the real ‘indigenous’ yazidi , of what happened to them ????
of the kurds ???
of the alawites ???
of the druze ????
why do you think the lot of the jews will be any better ???
……………ISIS exterminated Muslims, Yazidis, Christians, Jews, Shiites, and Sunnis alike.
Using ISIS to argue against coexistence is like using Nazis to argue against European democracy.
We can live in peace together it is possible.Kurds have been oppressed by:
* Turkey
* Iraq (Ba’athist regime)
* Iran
* Syria
All centralized nation-states trying to enforce ethnic homogeneity. This is exactly the argument against ethno-states, not for themAlawites were historically persecuted — until they captured the Syrian state.
What followed?
* Minority rule
* Brutal repression
* Civil war
* Mass death
This is not a story of safety. It’s a story of minority domination producing catastrophe.
Which should make Zionists less, not more, confident in ethno-state logic.And the druze have survived without a state.
Also Israel is not the only place Jews can currently live in the world.
The US is very safe for Jewish people.
The “rise of anti-semitism” is way overblown.
Jews have thrived in the US.
Quite clearly. And its not our only home, but it can be one of many.
We don’t israel to be safe….
I think Jewish success in the US has been a major point of evidence for this.More importantly,
We should not be committing genocide to protect Jewish lives.
Not only is this sickening, I do not even think it works in the long term.
For us, and the world around us.May we have peace soon in our days.
“We can live in peace together it is possible“
Tell that to kibbutz beeri and all those other places that got massacred on October 7, they believed like you that “we can coexist” with the Palestinians
The reason being is because they are led to believe that Israel is “the little Satan” therefore coexistence is impossible
According to leading researchers of DePauw University :
“American propaganda during the War
dehumanized and vilified targeted groups. The Japanese were among these
targeted groups as they were depicted as savage, subhuman and in need of extermination by American forms of
media and Government .The following US Government poster is a good example :
Stay on the job until every MURDERING
JAP is wiped out.”My question to you : Are the Americans during WW2 guilty of Genocide ? Yes or No ?
Bear in mind the 3 million plus innocent Japanese civilians who died by American bombs ….
Genocide ??? , Yes or No ???
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.@flamingo
There is NO INTENT whatsoever to commit genocide on behalf of Israel.
This is plain ridiculous . As ridiculous as the notion that Jews put blood in their matses .
And like the matses blood libel was used then to shed innocent Jewish blood , so is the genocide lie being used now to shed innocent Jewish blood.
If Israel would be intent on “genociding” the Arabs living in Palestine , then how come the Arab population in the West Bank and Gaza exploded from 1967 until now ?
Who is stopping those evil Israeli’s from genociding the Arabs ? The Arabs are at the mercy of the “occupation” , no ?
And that for over 50 years ….
How many Jews would be left after 50 years under Nazi occupation ?
The Arab population explodes since 1967
The Arab life expectancy shoots up since 1967
The Arabs’ GDP multiplies again and again since 1967
All while under the ‘evil genocidal’ Israel …..
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Come on Mrs Flamingo — where is your brain ?????
It seems that your brain is under ‘occupation’ ….
It is occupied by some special wash , manufactured by a coalition of Arabs and leftists amplified by biased MSM
which STOPS YOU FROM THINKING INDEPENDENTLY , you follow the brainwashers like sheep unthinkingly following their master ….
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Stop relying on lying ‘reports’ .and start analyzing the facts as they are , with honesty and backbone instead of quoting liars .
If you have to resort to quoting reports to buttress your point , it is a sure sign that that your opinion cannot stand on its own …
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.May we have first THE TRUTH and therefore ‘true peace’ in our days .
Otherwise we will be left with the lies and the resulting FALSE ‘piece’ …
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.UN reports are not worth the paper they are written on
They do not count at all
THE ONLY THING WHICH COUNTS IS …. REALITY
You should stop to outsource your intellect and your thinking to others !!!
Yes , there are calls for annihilation of a group .
That group is Hamas .
That group is GENOCIDAL Hamas .
Real genocidal . Not libelously genocidal.
You should not be defending real genocide .
You should not be falsely libeling those who STOP genocide .
That makes YOU an accomplice to genocide .
No matter what the biased liars of the UN say .
They are an accomplice too.
One accomplice takes the other accomplice as a witness …
SHAME ON YOU !!!!
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.@flamingo
Deliberate deprivation and siege conditions
AGAINST GENOCIDAL HAMASA long‑term blockade restricting food, water, medicine, fuel and humanitarian access to Gaza,
AGAINST GENOCIDAL HAMAS– Scale and nature of mass harm
Very high civilian death tolls, including large numbers of children, from repeated bombardments and operations
LESS THEN OTHER COMPARABLE CONFLICTS
3 MILLION JAPANESE CIVILIANS DEAD IS NOT GENOCIDE , BUT 40.000 ARABS DEAD IS ????– Destruction of vital infrastructure
Widespread destruction of homes, hospitals, schools, water systems, and other infrastructure indispensable to civilian survival.
ALL USED BY GENOCIDAL HAMAS– Measures affecting births
Destruction of reproductive health facilities (such as IVF clinics) and other services that affect the ability of the population to reproduce — which the UN commission treated as potentially fitting one of the Convention’s categories.
WHICH THE UN LIARS USED TO LIE AND LIBEL
AND THE FLAMINGO HYPOCRITE AND LIAR IS USING TO LIE AND LIBELHOW MANY IVF CLINICS WERE LEFT STANDING IN IRAQ AFGHANISTAN SUDAN ALGERIA SYRIA AND YEMEN ????
GENOCIDAL HAMAS SHOULD NOT USE THEM FOR WEAPONS AND FIGHTERS STORAGE AND THEY WILL BE LEFT STANDING ….
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FLAMINGO LOST HER BRAIN … SHE STOPPED THINKING FOR HERSELF ….ALL SHE APPARENTLY IS ABLE TO , IS QUOTING SO CALLED REPORTS ….
\
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FLAMINGO claims : the current populations of Jews in israel were not in need of this “self-defense” from Hamas prior to the establishment of the state of israel ….
—
Such a Sheker … Such a monstrous lie ….If not for the British authorities and the Jewish self defense groups BEFORE 1948 , the entire Jewish population would be gruesomely HACKED TO DEATH
just like their unfortunate brothers and sisters in 1921 , in 1926 , in 1929 , in 1936-1939 , in 1946 , and in 1947.My own grandfather remembered hiding as a child from crazed murderous Arab mobs in Haifa in 1936. He had to be smuggled out of his hiding place in the middle of the night , never to return to his childhood home. The whole family was lucky to escape with their lives .
And had to start anew in Jerusalem … from scratch .That is no news for the Middle East . Ask the Yazidi’s , the Kurds , the Alawites , the Jews from 1948 in Egypt , in Syria , in Iraq , in Yemen .
Listen to the Secretary General of the Arab League who clearly said that the massacres of Djengis Kahn will pale in comparison …
Follow the activities of Grand Mufti Husseini , the ultimate hero of the Arabs BEFORE 1948 who organized Muslim army brigades for Hitler.
Who visited Auschwitz in admiration of the good work done there .
Do all that , and you will acquire a taste for REAL GENOCIDE , not for the false ersatz variety …
You are buried in lies and without drastic mental action this will be your grave .
..
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.flamingo claims : …The answer could have been (and was for many) to find saftey in countries that will make space for jewish people
—no country ‘makes space’ for eight million jewish israeli’s
that is a total fallacy
.
.there exist twenty arab countries
there exist fifty muslim countries
they own real estate stretching from the atlantic to the pacific
from the caucuses to central africa
they own untold trillions of dollars of oil
but they cannot spare one six hundredth of land for the real indigenous people in their own land …
.
.there never existed an arab independent state in palestine — NEVER
their forefathers were immigrants to this land and did not develop it nor financed this land
it always was a backwater
until someone else develops it
there is one name for such an attitude — greediness and jealousy
add to that violence , the lust of killing and religious fanaticism and
voila—– there you have REAL GENOCIDE in the form of Mufti Husseini , Hamas , Islamic Jihad , Hezbollah and Iran …
defended by a GENOCIDE ENABLER WHO GOES BY THE NAME OF FLAMINGO …..
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Hard Facts and Figures , please ….No “reports” , please ….
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.flamingo claims that it is “my assumption” is that they want to wipe us out …
—-IT IS NOT MY ASSUMPTION
IT IS WHAT THEY ACTUALLY DID …. AND STILL DO …. AND WHAT THEY SAY THEY WILL DO AGAIN … AND AGAIN ….
why is flamingo purposely ignoring facts staring right into her face ?? is she that stupid ??
in her personal life is she also that stupid ???
when people spit in her face , does she also claim that it just happened to be raining ????
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.flamingo claims that israel is a colonial ethno-nationalist state ….
not backed up by any facts nor any logic ….
why is israel any more ‘ethno nationalist’ than any of the twenty arab states ???
why is israel any more ‘ethno nationalist’ than any of the fifty muslim states ????
.
.
.why is israel ‘colonial’ ???
why is the US not ‘colonial’ ???
why are Australia and New Zealand not ‘colonial’ ???
why is Canada not ‘colonial’ ???
why are the arab countries not ‘colonial’ ??? Didn’t they come from the Arabian Peninsula and ‘colonize’ the entire Middle East ????
The roots of the Jews in the Land of Israel are much deeper than any of all other nations mentioned ….
.
.Flamingo — FACT , FIGURES and COLD HARD LOGIC , please
no false fuzzy brain numbing platitudes which cannot standup in the harsh light of reality ….
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.flamingo falsely claims that israel displaced the indegenous population that was in their way
—
That is another monstrous lie on the same level of the blood in the matses .
with the same monstrous results
hard to believe that flamingo is actually jewish given the monstrosities she continuously spouts
israel did not fight with any of the arab nations surrounding it , NOR DID IT FIGHT WITH THE ARABS who lived in palestine
israel GUARANTEED EQUAL RIGHTS for any arab who happened to live in its allotted part of palestine
if the arabs would accept the UN’s Partition Plan of 1947 , ALL ARABS WOULD CONTINUE TO LIVE IN THEIR HOMES
it was the arabs and millions of their crazed supporters WHO OPENLY DECLARED THAT THEY WILL KILL AND PUSH THE JEWS INTO THE SEA
it was the arabs all over the middle east who brutally attacked and murdered innocent ‘indigenous’ Jewish civilians in their countries
confiscated all their belongings and expelled them all without even a cent of compensation
those ‘indigenous’ civilians WERE OF NO THREAT WHATSOEVER , nevertheless were they genocidally murdered ….
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re the libel of so called ‘displacement’ …it was israel who encouraged arabs to stay in their villages , while the supreme arab command encouraged them to flee.
which most of them did.
those arabs who stayed , actually enjoyed equal rights as was promised
they number now over 2 million
but flamingo liar , please tell me — conversely—- WHERE ARE THE TWO MILLION JEWS UNDER ARAB DOMINION ???
WHERE ARE THEIR EQUAL RIGHTS ????
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.flamingo liar , please tell me —– why are the Jews who set foot in arab villages cruelly murdered ,
whereas arabs wander unharmed in jewish villages and towns ????arab towns are judenrein
the jewish country is full of arabs …flamingo liar , please tell me — honestly —- if you know the real meaning of the word ….
WHO IS GENOCIDAL ??? the arabs or the israeli’s ???
.
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the thief is screaming thief ….
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.flamingo falsely claims that in Israel Jews have more rights than non-jews.
Another monstrous lie .
all citizens in Israel are equal in front of the law no matter whether arab or jewish.
again wondering whether flamingo is jewish or not
such vile lies …
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arab citizens in arab countries do not enjoy the rights arab citizens enjoy in israel !!!!does flamingo know that there is widespread resistance from arab citizens in israel against a plan of transferring sovereignty of their homes
from israeli to arab , even when no one is moved at all ….
why do they prefer israeli sovereignty over arab sovereignty ??
why do they want to live under a ‘genocidal’ regime ????
have you ever seen a jew wanting to stay under a nazi regime ?????
do you realize that the contrived language you are parroting, amounts to nothing more than utter hogwash ???
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flamingo PERSONALLY is arguing for one state one vote with reparations …
one huge joke ….
flamingo PERSONALLY is guaranteeing that the one vote which each jew is receiving , courtesy of flamingo , will actually count ….
moreover , flamingo PERSONALLY is guaranteeing that even the one vote which each arab will have , will actually count ….
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if so , flamingo PERSONALLY should also guarantee that the one vote which each arab has in all twenty arab countries actually count ….
do they really count ????
you know what …. before we will rely on flamingo’s PERSONAL PROMISE that each vote will count in EY …
let her prove her prowess and see how she first makes sure that the one vote the arab has in all of his twenty arab countries , actually count ……
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but no …. there must be some UN report , somewhere … saying that the arab citizens’ vote within arab countries actually do count …
so that UN report trumps reality …
that sounds like an excellent refutation of my comment ….
.
.flamingo claims that arab land was ‘horrificly stolen’ …
—flamingo , you ‘evenhanded’ liar ….
the land of a million of jewish ‘indigenous’ innocents in arab countries all over the middle east … was that also ‘horrificly stolen’ …..
or not ? ? ?
.
.flamingo the filthy liar claims that we are teaching Jewish children to hate Arabs . We are teaching Jewish children to hate Muslims, and overall to look down on Non-Jews .
flamingo the filthy liar should write for der sturmer .
they would be delighted to feature her
I pray that flamingo should get her just rewards from heaven for her filthy lies
this is total sheker vechazav
my children are NOT taught to hate arabs , nor are any of the children I know , nor are any children taught to hate any muslims
nor to look down on anyone whatsoever
my children are taught that chaviv adam she nivra betselem like mishna says in avot
my children are taught to treat everyone with respect as a human being
and let me tell you — they do respect every human being
I am deeply offended by your attacks , lies and vile slurs …
.
.flamingo is being clear MOTSI SHEM RA on all of klal yisrael and will have to some very serious teshuva — if she is jewish ….
.
.You sound like a tuna bagel. Someone who used to be chassidish, has knowledge, but is soo ill informed that you distort history.
Once you said ” 1st the current populations of Jews in israel were not in need of this “self-defense” from Hamas prior to the establishment of the state of israel.” Just showed how ignorance is dangerous and I stopped reading the rest of your garbage. Israel prior to 1948 was a dangerous place for Jews. I’m not going to start teaching you history, You should not have left Yeshiva early on. Or you needed a better education.
And then a second ignorant statements you made was that majority of Palestinians do not support hamas. As you know, Hamas is the ELECTED government in Gaza. I don’t know if you’re familiar with how elections work, but, the majority wins. Which again shows ignorance in your statement.
And the fact is you completely ignore that the Jews are the indigenous palestinians. Jews are the indigenous occupants of the land. Not were, but are! It seems like you are upset that the indigenous people, the jews, are the only indigenous people that were able to overthrow their colonial masters. So you go ahead and distort history.
So when you say the word palestinian, you need to step away from your extreme views and accept that all the points you want to make are referring to Jews. You would never consider that the native Americans are not indigenous because European colonizers are the majority! That’s how absurd you sound when it comes to Israel and jews. While Jews may not have been the majority, and they were colonized by Muslim Invaders, they are still the indigenous people and no amount of colonization can ever change that.Sorry, I can’t read through the rest of the ignorance because it is painful to read how woefully ignorant someone can be.
realistic flamingo claims that “education, love, acceptance, these things stop genocide”
what stopped the nazi genocide ? ? ?
was it “education, love, acceptance” ? ? ?
what stopped the hamas attempted genocide on october 7 ??
was it “education, love, acceptance” ? ? ?
what did the now dead leftist victims of the october 7 attempted genocide , think while they were still alive ????
that their “education, love, acceptance” towards the pitiful arabs of gaza would stop their own murder ????
have a secret for our realistic flamingo —– the now dead leftist victims of the october 7 attempted genocide …
they thought like you ….
they showered gaza arabs with “education, love and acceptance” ….
they helped them , hosted them , ferried them around , loved them , accepted them , employed them and advocated for them ….
and it was those very same arabs who mapped their homes as preparation for the genocidal oct 7 mass murder
and later came to loot their homes ….
.
.
how naive … how naive …..
.
.
.In the same sentence you say you respect all people you call me a filthy liar that has punishment coming from shamayim.
I’m genuinely confused. And you say you respect all people, I’m really curious how you feel about Jews that are not frum. Beyond that you have repeatedly spread islamaphobic and Arab hating positions.
Also I never excused the US colonial endeavors or the colonial endeavors of other imperialist nations. The US certainly committed atrocities and genocides around the world (including in Japan). If anything I think Israel is more of an arm of the US imperialist goals. We are acting as their puppets, though it happens to also benefit us.
Also all of the nations run by islamist regimes are certainly worthy of critique and there is good argument to do what we can to protect the people impacted that are living in these regimes. At the same time those regimes are not currently guilty of active genocide and erasure of indigenous people.
To claim that the Jews are indigenous to Israel is silly. Even in the Torah we came in and conquered we were not from modern day Israel.
You also started inching towards blaming the empathy of the Nova festival goers for there own deaths which is pretty disturbing honestly. I don’t think hamas’ attack was motivated by the deep and loving empathy of the Israeli people. And no it’s not just because they are Jewish. We stole there land. Actively massacre and starve their people. And claim to offer peace when we actively refuse even the idea of creating a land with actual equal rights. Don’t tell me arabs have the same rights lol. So your telling me my Jewish status means nothing when applying for citizenship and housing in Israel? The fact that i have privileges in that land for just being Jewish is deeply problematic. It is prioritizing one ethnic group over another, and in a space where historically we haven’t been “from” in a very long time, and it’s not like I’m sitting here in the US actively being oppressed. That thought is silly. The Jewish people are thriving around the world right now. By almost every measurable standard we have.
You also ironically talked about European settlers, I mean that is what the Zionists are/were. Certainly many Arab Jews too, but this is a European settler led movement, that even discriminated against Arab Jews at the start.
As an Arab Jew your continued conflation with Arab as bad is deeply offensive. Also your questioning of my Jewish roots just because of my opinions. I mean c’mon, given the region I come from its likely my yichus is more directly traceable than yours.
All of this would be comical if not tragic. Your opinions actively put lives at risk. I’m not calling you a filthy liar. I don’t think you think you are a bad person. . What I do think is well… Take what you threw at me at just say it about you re: brainwashed sheep
I guess I’m curious. Like do you really think I’ve been brainwashed? Like is it not just possible I have a different philosophical opinion, as you do. I guess I claim brainwash because your opinion seems to deeply ignore the realities on the ground. And I see that you think I’m doing the same. This impass honestly feels endless.
If you could actually engage with me, let’s try something. I’ll state how you hold @yankel berel and in return you can state back how I hold. Just to make sure we are seeing each other’s opinions eye to eye.
You hold that Israel is the place we come from and ultimately our birthright as stated both in the Torah and based on the actual history of the Jewish people. You hold that the world is an has been a dangerous place for Jewish people and that the active existence of the state of Israel protects Jews not just there but everywhere as the world can turn on us at any moment. You also hold that if Hamas and other Palestinian leaders actually accepted a peace deal we would not need to be in any active or murderous conflict. You also deny any concept of genocide (at least by the Israelis) as you see this as self defense. On top of that you see that the Palestinian people (at least majority) have a deep seeded hatred of Jews, and that any attempts at integration would be dangerous and naive. You hold that if Palestinians had voting rights in the land of Israel we could be overrun and outpaced in population and lose our safety and rights. You hold that the state of Israel protected Jews that lived in Israel at the time of creation, and to this day. You hold that any claims of genocide can be akin to blood libel, being that we are accusing the Jews of senseless murder, and even using this as motivation to support terrorists. You also hold that hamas is using children as human meat shields. On top of that you would contest that they had there land stolen, and see it more as conquered or even that they tried to attack us so we needed to push them further out. You would justify this and say that every modern country did this and no one seems to be complaining. You would also protest that islamist run countries moved there Jews out and are currently unsafe places for Jews and people of other religions and potentially even sects within Islam.
Ultimately you see Israel as a right, and a necessity for the Jewish people, now and forever. And the existence of Hamas and the Palestenian people (who you deny exist) is just one in a long line or enemies of the Jewish people standing in the way of that and actively threatening the Jewish people.
Also that the media has bought there story hook line and sinker. They fell for their propaganda and are mistaken in feeling bad for them. Like someone who feels bad for a wolf or something while chastising the shepherd for trying to protect his sheep.
And you think I fell for this too because I read too much of it, or didn’t stay in yeshiva long enough, or may not even be Jewish.
And that based on my positions and opinions I deserve severe punishment.
Is there anything else I missed?
@ brainless flamingo
In the same sentence I say I respect all people I call flamingo a filthy liar that has punishment coming from shamayim.
yes.
In the same sentence that I say I respect all people , I will also call a murderer a filthy murderer because that’s what he is .
one should respect all people and should still call out filthy murderers – not a contradiction at all
and call out accessories to murder through their filthy lies – yes call them out too
meaning – people like flamingo
.
.
.if someone chvsh murders my brothers – the least I can do is to call them out
if someone advocates to facilitate murdering my brothers through the spreading of lies – the least I can do is to call them out too
any decent and reasonable person should do the same
why that is in any way a contradiction to respecting all people – is beyond me …
.
brainless flamingo is not engaging with the ideas , nor is she answering questions
USA bombing in Japan constitutes genocide – Yes or No ?
why can’t you answer a straight answer ?
.
flamingo goes on and on and should cut to the issue at hand – am deleting the unnecessary details from her post and correcting it as she should have written if she would listen to reality instead of biased and lying propaganda , masquerading as ‘reports’
1] how many innocent german children died in world war two ?
was that genocide ?
if not , why not ?…….
if your asking about non-jewish german children, I would imagine there are many who died, but not from genocide, these were more casualties of war than genocide .
What differentiates this from genocide is the intent.
If the Allies would intend to genocide the german civilians , THEY WOULD CONTINUE TO KILL THEM AFTER THEY WON THE WAR
They did not – that shows that they were ‘casualties’ , nothing more.
And this is vital when understanding what is happening in Palestine.
Because Israel isn’t killing any arab civilians after they win the war , that shows their intent . Otherwise why would they stop ?Intent from Israeli Government:
– Comments wrongly interpreted by biased antisemites as comparing Palestinians to “human animals” — language that those liars made appear viewed as dehumanizing the innocent arab civilians , when in fact those comments are referring to armed genocidal fanatics of the Hamas variety and their supporters
– Statements by political and military leaders framed in religious or absolute terms, such as invoking the command to destroy Amalek, which should be understood as “total annihalation” for the same armed fanatics
– A letter by a top official to soldiers described in the UN-Hamas propaganda report as stressing a kind of “total annihilation” approach, which the commission mistreated as an indicator of intent to destroy a group of civilians when in fact was referring to the same armed fanatics
The UN – Hamas propanda claims that the only reasonable inference is genocidal intent.
The UN-Hamas propaganda highlights these patterns:
– Deliberate deprivation and siege conditions which in fact was targeted against armed fanatics
A long‑term blockade restricting food, water, medicine, fuel and humanitarian access to Gaza, which was aimed at the fanatics and their supporters.– Scale and nature of mass harm
“Very high” civilian death tolls, including large numbers of children, totally ignoring comparable war situations with even higher civilian death tolls– Destruction of vital infrastructure
Widespread destruction of homes, hospitals, schools, water systems, and other infrastructure , to be blamed on Hamas genocidal monsters using those facilities for their genocidal activities.– Measures affecting births
Destruction of reproductive health facilities (such as IVF clinics) and other services that affect the ability of the population to reproduce — to be blamed on the same Hamas monsters using those facilities for their genocidal activities.………..
why does flamingo not answer those simple objective reality based questions ?
How come the arab population, their life expectancy , their economic development in EY is doing so well under a GENOCIDE ?
whenever there is no armed conflict and no active preparation for one, that is .
whenever and wherever there is no conflict , those three sure proof indicators skyrocket – how does that square with an intent to annihilate them ?
how did the population of gaza multiply to over 2 million under a genocide ?????
how were the population numbers of the jews faring under a real genocide in Europe ?
remember – the word genocide did not exist . It was created in order to stop the nazi genocide from reoccurring ….
.
why can’t you argue your case without constantly relying on the authority of so called ‘commissions’ ?why can’t you argue your case on the basis of facts and logic only ?
.
.Silly flamingo claims that to say that the Jews are indigenous to Israel is silly.
Proof ?? — listen to this : Even in the Torah we came in and conquered , we were not from modern day Israel.
——————According to silly flamingo – are the spanish people “indigenous” to spain ?
the english people indigenous to england ?
are the arab people ‘indegenous’ to the arab countries of north africa ?
waiting for silly flamingo to come up with a serious answer ….
——————-
besides – ignorant flamingo is attempting to use the torah to ‘prove’ that jews supposedly are not indigenous to EY
because the torah states that yehoshua conquered the land
would like to enlighten ignorant flamingo here — this very same torah which ignorant flamingo is attempting to hijack against the jews
that very same torah states that in the time before avraham, much before yehoshua , the seven nations conquered it from zar’o shel shem ,
who were the family of avraham , so the seven nations were not ‘indigenous’ either
——————–
when will flamingo actually stop for a moment , take a deep breath and RE EXAMINE her long held dogma ????
are they sound ??? do they align with the hard facts ??? with cold logic ????
should we really outsource our thinking to others ????
.
..
.——————
flamingo professes to be a jew
and a religious one ….
does flamingo know the severity of the issur of motsi shem ra ????
did flamingo ever learn the sefer of the hafets hayim in a thorough manner ????
does flamingo know that the issur of motsi shem ra is multiplied by the amount of people she is libeling ????
does flamingo know what the zohar writes about people who are motsi la’az about the collective of klal yisrael ????
is she really religious ????
is she really jewish ????
all one big mystery …..
.
.
.flamingo claims that I make ‘arab hating’ and ‘islamaphobic’ statements
she uses that accusation as a convenient excuse
to avoid an honest discussion about the real facts that are raised
reality is not ‘hating’ , reality is simply a fact ….
ignore facts at your own peril ….
.
.I see you continue to have no interest in engaging in good faith discussion. I asked you to even try to give over my opinion, just to state that you understand how I hold, but you couldn’t even do that.
As fun as it is watching you squirm and imagining you angrily typing away your responses, I’m gonna stop this here. I’m done (for now at least). This is exhausting.
Congrats to Yankel Berel for successfully defending a genocide. May history remember you fondly.
And its FlamingOTD not flamingo. As cool as pink birds are, my name is an ironic twist on being “on fire” and being “OTD.” Please stop referring to me as flamingo.
I do appreciate you getting my pronouns right though. Thank you for that.
Supporting murderous barbaric genocidal lies is exhausting …. according to the OTD bird who was mistakenly called flamingo …
Am wondering — Why ?
It does not require any independent brain activity at all …
You simply copy and post any nonsense published by leftist ‘commissions’ and so called ‘experts’
You are not required to use any critical thinking ….
You do not even have to check whether your opinions align with reality …. because reality is totally irrelevant ….
in OTD’s make believe universe .
.
.Its as simple as can be …
So —- Why is flaming OTD ‘exhausted’ … ? ? ?
Does that have any indication regarding our OTD’s real brain capabilities ????
.
.Congrats to brainless , thinking less , reality ignoring OTD for defending , no …. parroting …. excuses for REAL GENOCIDE ……
.
.The poster who self labels as flamingOTD
claims she is female
claims she is jewish
claims she is arab
claims that reality is irrelevant
claims falsely that arabs in israel are not equal to jews before the law
claims falsely that jews are not indigenous in EY
claims falsely that it is sure that the genocidal barbarities which befell other minorities in the Middle East will never befall the jews
claims falsely that the arabs are indigenous in north africa
claims falsely that the arab muslim mindset does not encourage violence
claims falsely that hamas could not give shelter to arab civilians in their 900 kms of tunnels
claims falsely that innocent civilian jews are safe in arab towns all over the middle east
claims falsely that innocent arab civilians are not safe in non battle zone towns under israeli domination
claims falsely that jews were not systematically murdered and ethnically cleansed from arab muslim towns and cities all over the middle east
claims falsely that the stated and proven aim of hamas and friends is not the ethnical cleansing of jews from all of ‘palestine’
claims falsely that the IDF is not the only credible power standing in hamas’ way
claims falsely that OTD and ‘majority’ of arabs in palestine will successfully stop hamas from doing what they clearly say and intend to do
claims falsely that ‘love and acceptance’ will stop hamas from carrying out their genocidal goals, like ‘peace and love’ stopped the nazi’s genocide
claims falsely that utopia and lazy thinking could somehow shield innocents from barbarians
claims falsely that certain standards only apply to an ideological predetermined target
claims falsely that arab muslims live with each other in supposed ‘peace and love’
claims falsely that many hundreds of thousands of innocent arab muslims were never barbarically murdered by their own brothers
—– in iraq , lebanon , syria , jordan , algeria , sudan , yemen and libya ….
and the blatant lies, inconsistencies and double standards within OTD’s posts are following each other in such a fast tempo
—– as if their tempo would somehow fool the bystander into the same dream like existence as OTD fools herself into ….
she is a fool who is so foolish that she fools herself into believing that others will be foolish enough to follow her into the abyss ….
.
.Lol.
FlamingOTD is sending urgent advice to the protestors in Iran :
the way to send the supreme dictator packing and ensure freedom from tyranny is ….
through LOVE AND ACCEPTANCE ….
In response …
the protesters are asking why flaming OTD is taunting them ….
.
.
.Flaming OTD,
If Judaism is only a religion and there is no such thing as an ethnic Jew, what makes you a Jew at all?
You admittedly aren’t observant.I can’t speak for @flamingOTD specifically, but the claim that ANYONE is Jewish is specifically a religious claim of the Jewish religion, a claim specifically that such a person is obligated to keep the Torah. This obligation cannot be canceled and its reward and punishment will be delivered according to however much the Jew is on-the-derech, keeping the Torah.
I agree that a person who stupidly claims the Torah is NOT a real covenant with The Creator – reform, secular, religion zionist, or whatever – can not call himself Jewish with any integrity because those words indeed mean he believes he is bound by the Divine Torah. However, he may still indeed be Jewish (obligated) despite not being part of klal yisroel (rewarded).
According to LYING flamingOTD , israel is intending to genocide the arabs in EY
I have a basic question for her , basic logic ….
why have they not done so ?
they governed over arabs since 1948
and governed over even more arabs since 1967
at least they should have done to the arabs what the arabs did to the jews they governed ….
at least ….
why did they not do so ? ? ?
elementary question to flaming OTD …..
1] what happened to the 37 shuls in the Old City governed by the arab government from 1948 till 1967 ,for nearly twenty years ? ? ?
2] what happens to the hundreds of mosques governed by israel from 1948 till 2026 ? ? ?
who is really committing genocide ???
flaming … if you do not answer these questions directly , then you are a cheap cop out , nothing more ….
.
.
.Flaming OTD would do herself good if she internalizes the following description of an online message in a video from occupied Iran :
The young Iranian woman highlights Iran’s current reality as a country of more than 92 million people living under an intense digital blackout. “Almost a complete blackout for more than 24 hours: no internet, no phone connection, no communication at all,” she says. “And what does the left do? It stays silent. No protests, no hashtags, no megaphones. Iranian suffering simply doesn’t fit the agenda.”
She argues that this silence is not accidental but deliberate. “Because the suffering of Iranians does not fit their agenda. Because modern leftist movements are no longer driven by human rights – they are driven by selective outrage and ideological loyalty. They will scream about censorship – unless it is done by an Islamist regime. They will condemn state violence to the fullest – but will never say a word if that violence is wrapped in religious language.”
“They chant “Free Palestine,” but will never say “Free Iran,” because that would require one difficult admission: that political Islam is not liberation – it is domination. And, by the way, this is happening in the West today as well.”
“You cannot claim moral superiority while justifying a regime that kills women and punishes them for refusing the hijab, kills protesters, cuts off the internet for a 92-million-strong nation, and uses foreign proxy groups to cover up its own internal collapse. You cannot pretend to care about Palestinians while ignoring Iranians who are being shot, tortured, and killed by the Islamic Republic.”
“History will remember this moment. It will remember who spoke about universal freedom and who decided that some lives are less important than preserving a narrative. Long live Iran,” she concluded.
The clip has sparked widespread debate online, resonating with many who see it as a rare and uncompromising challenge to dominant narratives surrounding Iran, Gaza, and the politics of global protest movements.
.….. However, he may still indeed be Jewish (obligated) despite not being part of klal yisroel (rewarded).
————-is there a source for this statement ?
why should he not be rewarded for the mitsvot he did ? ?
.
.@yankel-berel
the mishna in sanhedren, “kol yisroel yesh l’hem olam ha bu” list many of those who lose olam habu (which is the main reward). The Rambam’s peirish on that mishna is where he list what became known as the “13 ikarim” and the rambam writes how a person doubitng them loses their olam habu.However, if these reshoyim did any mitzveh, they would still get rewarded in olam hazeh (as per the rule of schar v’onesh, one of the 13 ikarim). This perhaps makes an easy context to understand the many statements in chazal and late poskim about the damage done when a mumar does a mitzvah that it feeds and strengthens, cha v’shulem, the sitra achra.
(this is regarding actual mitzvos, not the disgrace of profaning mitzvos that some do by putting teffilin on those who don’t believe in Hashem or Torah, turning yiddishkeit into a secular ethnic culture of “jew-ish”. there is no “mitzvah” if one does not believe they were commanded. that being said, we jews (not you @yankel-berel, as you’ve already defended and endorsed other religious) are not in the business of telling anyone – mumar or not – to stop doing any mitzvos, because we cannot know what is in a person heart. so we must be machmir on both sides despite the chazuke that they are kofer)
@somejewiknow, my question was specifically directed to @FlamingOTD because I had thought of your answer before.
A religious anti-Zionist can give that answer, and it is logical even if disputed. A secular Zionist can similarly say that Jews are only an ethnicity, and it is also logical even if disputed. The As-a-Jews like FlamingOTD don’t have that privilege…
The question needs to be answered without Rabbinics/theology and without any mention of ethnicity. For a Jew who believes nothing, observes nothing, and only references Judaism to condemn Israel, using theology they admittedly don’t follow is just self-contradictory.somejew seems to agree that a mumar is rewarded for his mitsvot
maybe not in olam haba
but rewarded nevertheless
.
..
thanks for your being modeh al ha’emet …
.
.@yankel-berel
yes. “schar v’onesh” is one of the 13 ikarim. i’m not sure what alternative you were considering.Discussion of mumarim donning tefilin at chabad houses is noreshkeit. Most people whom chabad addresses are tinokos shenishba.
I once encountered someone who claimed to be an apikoires – learned when he was young and based on some interactions we had, became nostalgic for some learning. I first sent him to a litvishe rov, who said – you can come to the class on the condition that you’ll stay quiet. This did not work. Then, I sent him to chabad shaliach who spent some time discussing their differing worldviews without any problem.
I was reading somejew’s previous post claiming that a mumar does not get rewarded for mitsvot . that was the alternative to the 13 ikarim ….
.@always_ask_questions
most tinokos shenishbu today are mumarim.@yankel-berel
you said “I was reading somejew’s previous post claiming that a mumar does not get rewarded…”
please point to the specific comment (every comment has a unique ID number in the top right you can use as reference) in question and please explain what you think is wrong about it. I will either clarify or admit my mistake, iy”Hsomejew> most tinokos shenishbu today are mumarim.
In my understanding, these are mutually exclusive categories. Could you please suggest sources for such statement and, even better – ask a shailo of your ruv, so that you get a reply from a source you respect lhathilah. I am interested in hearing this opinion.
in an attempt to give you some unbiased starting point, here is Gemini:
q: can a person be both at the same time or are these categories exclusive
a: In the framework of Jewish law (halakha), these two categories are mutually exclusive as legal statuses, but they are overlapping as descriptive behaviors.
To put it simply: a person cannot be both a tinok shenishba and a mumar for the same action because one category exists specifically to cancel out the other.
If they are a Mumar, they lose certain communal privileges (e.g., their testimony is invalid).
If they are a Tinok Shenishba, they are viewed as an oness (someone under duress/accidental) and retain their full legal standing.my first thoughts are simply read the Rambam himself, which is the original source of the chidish that there could be any type of mumar that is considered a “tinik shenishbu”, where he ends with “don’t kill them quickly”. [before this chidish, the phrase meant a baby actually captured by non-jews].
The Rambam also defines the terms “apikorus”, “min”, “mimar” explicitly in Yad, brings multiple haluchos in other parts of Yad thet leerage those definitions, such as ribis and rotzeach, etc. He also write at length about kefira in mishnayos perek Kol.
At no point does he mention that there is some sort of excpetion for tinok shenishbu as mutually exclusive (as mentioned, of course there are tinukos shenishbu that are NOT mumarim). Nor does the Rambam provide any rational that would support such a binary.
However, in an effort to find your question addressed more directly, I offer the statements of the Brisker Rav who said “Nebach an apikorus is still and apikorus”. Even more direct, it the mamar on eminah from Rav Elchonon Wasserman’s kovetz maamarim (I think the very first mamar in the current common print). But, I don’t have it in front of me to quote exactly.
Yet to really get to the bottom of the question, a question really about todays non-jewish jewish, I would offer a look at modern day poskim and how they handle quesitons about their status l’halucheh.
Here is from shevet halevi, chelek 1, siman 20. He does not entertain any such consdieration that a common michalel shabbos today is not a imar
Here is the transcription and translation, automated (so please check for mistakes).
====================================
סימן ככבוד ידידנו המפואר ומופלג בתורה ויראה
טהורה הרב ר’ צבי ליבוביץ שליט”א,
שו”ב כפר חיים.אחדשכ”ט וש”ת.
שאלת חכם חצי תשובה לנכון קבלתי והאותיות
מחכימות היות כי במקומו אנשים איזה [אולי: אלו]
מהמתפללים הם מחללי שבת ואוכלי נו”ט ר”ל, וזהו
לעשות ביום חג הפסח הבעל”ט וכי’ צריך לברר
בנ”ד אם להתפלל ביחידות כיון דתפלה בציבור רק
דרבנן, וגם חברת האנשים האלה מבטלים
משמחת יו”ט וגורמים בלבול תפלה, וכבר כל יקר
ראתה עינו תשובת רבותינו האחרונים ובפרט דברי
הרדב”ז ח”ד סי’ אלף קפ”ז (תקפז) ודברי מהר”ם שיק או”ח
סי’ ע”א, ומיוסד על יסוד דברי הפרי מגדים סימן
נ”ה דמותר להכעיס או לחלל שבתות אסור לצרף,
ועיין עוד סימן קכ”ח ומ”ב ס”ק קנ”ד, והין לו
להאריך בפשוט, דאסור להתפלל בקהל כזה כיון
דבעו”ה אינם בגדר בני ישראל בדיני מצות וצירוף
מנין.
ואם אמנם הגאון בנין ציון ח”ב סי’ כ”ג רצה
להקל במחללי שבת דזמנינו כיון דהולכים
לבית הכנסת ומתפללים וגם מקדשים קדוש היום,
דלא טעם מחלל שבת כגוי מפני שכופר
בבריאה וסבורא הא מודה ע”י קידוש ותפלה יע”ש,
ויותר מה מצאתי בתשו’ רבנו הרמ”ע בסוף אגרת
השמד שכתב וז”ל: וג”כ אינו ראוי להרחיק מחללי
שבתות ולמאוס אותם אלא לקרבם ומרחם לעשות
המצוות וכבר פי’ רבותינו ז”ל שהפושע אם פשע
ברצונו כשיבוא לבית הכנסת להתפלל מקבלים אותו
ואין נוהגין בו מנהג ביזיון וסמכו על זה מדברי
שלמה ע”ה לא יבוזו לגנב כי יגנוב למלא נפשו כי
ירעב, אל יבוזו לפושעי ישראל שהם בחי’ נסתר
לגנוב מצוות, ע”כ. ואמנם כ”ז אינו מעלה ארוכה
למכה דידן במקום שרוב הקהל הם פורקים ומחללי
שבת, פשיטא דאסור להיות בחברתם כיון דלהםהתלי’ בכל הענינים וגם איכא חשש דימשך
אחריהם ובפרט הבנים הקטנים הרכים לפניהם
קהל כזה. וגם דברי הבנין ציון הנ”ל נראים חדשים
ביותר ואיכה מקום לצרפם לענין נגיעת יין של
מחללי שבת בזמן הזה, אבל חלילה להיות אחד עם
קהל כזה. וכן מדברי הרמב”ם אינו ראיה דשם
מדובר ג”כ בנידון שיראי ה’ ידם על העליונה והם
רוצים לקרב גם אלו שבעוונותיהם פירשו מעדת ה’.
אבל לא כן המצב עכשיו בעו”ה שרבו הפורצים
ויראי ה’ אינם מתקבלים עליהם, לכן טוב שיפרוש
מהם ומהמונם. עיי’ ח”ס סי’ קס”ה-חואמנם גם זה לא ניחא לי לקודש”ה שיסגר עצמו
ובניו בחג הק’ הבעל”ט להתפלל ביחידות
והנה הקטן לא יראה מעשי ה’ ולא ישמעו תפלה
בצבור ולא קריאת התורה ולא כל מנהגים הקדושים
והמתוקים שנהגו מימות עולם, ע”כ יקיים דברי
הרמב”ם ויהפך לו מקום אחר, כמש”כ פ”ו מהלכות
דעות דצריך לצאת אפילו למדינה אחרת ואז טוב לו
בגוף ובנפש.English Translation
Siman Chaf (20)
To the honor of our glorious friend, distinguished in Torah and pure fear of Heaven, the Rav, R’ Tzvi Leibowitz Shlita [May he live for good long days, Amen],
Shochet u’Bodek of Kfar Chais.I extend greetings of life and peace.
“The question of a wise man is half the answer” – I have received [your letter] duly, and the letters are enlightening. Since in his place there are certain individuals among the congregants who are Mechallelei Shabbos and eaters of Neveilos u’Treifos R”L, and this concerns what to do on the upcoming holiday of Pesach HaBa Aleinu L’Tova. And thus, it is necessary to clarify in Nidon Didan [our case at hand] whether to pray B’yechidus [privately], since Tefilah B’Tzibbur is only D’Rabbanan, and also the company of these people cancels the Simchas Yom Tov and causes Bilbul Tefilah.And indeed, every precious eye has already seen the responsa of our Later Rabbis (Acharonim), specifically the words of the Radvaz, Part 4, Siman 1187 (587), and the words of Maharam Schick, Orach Chaim, Siman 71. This is founded upon the principle of the Pri Megadim, Siman 55, that one who transgresses casually (l’hach’is) or desecrates Shabbosos is forbidden to be included [in a Minyan]. See also Siman 128 and the Mishnah Berurah subsection 154. There is no need to elaborate on the obvious, that it is forbidden to pray in such a congregation, since Ba’avonosaynu HaRabbim they are not within the category of Bnei Yisrael regarding the laws of Mitzvos and inclusion in a Minyan.
And even though the Gaon, author of Binyan Tzion, Part 2, Siman 23, wished to be lenient regarding the Mechallelei Shabbos of our times—since they go to the Beis HaKnesses and pray and also recite Kiddush on the Holy Day, for the reason a Mechallel Shabbos is like a gentile is because he denies Creation, whereas this one admits to it through Kiddush and Tefilah, see there—and further what I found in the Responsa of our master, the Rama [Rabbi Menachem Azariah of Fano] at the end of Iggeret HaShmad, who wrote as follows: “And also it is not fitting to distance Mechallelei Shabbosos and to loathe them, but rather to draw them close and have mercy to perform the Mitzvos. And our Rabbis of blessed memory have already explained that a transgressor, if he transgressed willfully, when he comes to the Beis HaKnesses to pray, we accept him and do not treat him with contempt. They relied in this on the words of Shlomo A”H: ‘Men do not despise a thief, if he steals to satisfy his soul when he is hungry’ (Proverbs 6:30); do not despise the transgressors of Israel, for they are in the aspect of a hidden one stealing Mitzvos,” until here.
However, all this is not a healing remedy for our wound in a place where the majority of the congregation are those who cast off the yoke [of Heaven] and are Mechallelei Shabbos. It is obvious that it is forbidden to be in their company, since to them belongs the influence/dependence in all matters, and there is also a concern that he will be drawn after them, specifically the small, tender sons [who are] before such a congregation. Furthermore, the words of the aforementioned Binyan Tzion seem very novel (Chidushim), and how is there room to combine them [rely on them] regarding the matter of Negias Yayin of Mechallelei Shabbos in this time? But Chalila to be ‘one’ with such a congregation.
So too, from the words of the Rambam there is no proof, for there it speaks also in a case where the God-fearing have the upper hand, and they wish to draw close those who, through their sins, have separated from the congregation of Hashem. But such is not the situation now, Ba’avonosaynu HaRabbim, where the lawless (Portzim) have multiplied and the God-fearing are not accepted by them; therefore, it is good that he separate from them and their multitudes. See Chatam Sofer, Siman 165-168.
However, this too is not pleasing to me for the sake of the Kidsha Brich Hi, that he should shut himself and his sons away on the upcoming Holy Holiday to pray B’yechidus. And behold, the little one [child] will not see the works of Hashem, and they will not hear prayer B’Tzibbur, nor Krias HaTorah, nor all the holy and sweet customs that have been practiced since days of old. Therefore, he should fulfill the words of the Rambam and find himself another place, as he wrote in Chapter 6 of Hilchos De’ot, that one must leave even to another country, and then it will be good for him in body and soul.
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somejew, thanks, this teshuva deals with some other issues – whether it is appropriate to live among people who not keep shabbos, it is also does not discuss the issue of tinokos. You mentioned Rambam. So, hilchos mamrim 3:3 says this applies to people like Tzadok & Beitos and then defines tinokos as an exception to that:
אֲבָל בְּנֵי אוֹתָן הַטּוֹעִים וּבְנֵי בְּנֵיהֶם,
There is nothing here about killing them slowly, but rather bring them to teshuva and Torah with words of peace.
פִיכָךְ רָאוּי לְהַחֲזִירָן בִּתְשׁוּבָה, וּלְמָשְׁכָם בְּדִבְרֵי שָׁלוֹם, עַד שֶׁיַּחְזְרוּ לְאֵיתַן הַתּוֹרָה.Note that Rambam here talks about generations of karaims, who would be more learned in Chumash than modern day non-O or non-observant Jews.
Am I misinterpreting this short paragraph incorrectly? Do your poskim disagree? And please post explicitly about this case, not about general opinion about mehalel shabbos.
Also, I notice that you are trying to bring sources close to your heart – Brisker, R Elchonon. I am very interested to learn what they say on this topic, but they are no substitute for normative halacha accepted by large swaths of Jews – Rambam, S’A, MB, R Moshe …
Proposed Solution to the Arab-Zionist Conflict: Non-Denominational State
I agree that a person who stupidly claims the Torah is NOT a real covenant with The Creator – reform, secular, religion zionist, or whatever – can not call himself Jewish with any integrity because those words indeed mean he believes he is bound by the Divine Torah. However, he may still indeed be Jewish (obligated) despite not being part of klal yisroel (rewarded).
[somejew]
————————————————-this is unsupported in judaism
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.Some Jew – WRT Chabad Tefillin stands, if someone really and truly doesn’t believe in anything ר״ל, so why is he putting on Tefillin? (Unless it’s a politician doing a photo-op, which it isn’t 99% of the time.) And usually, especially if he is an Israeli who already knows how to read אלף בית, saying שמע ישראל ה׳ אלקינו ה׳ אחד? (Which is explicitly negating any מחשבה of ‘not believing’, and if he makes it to והיה אם שמוע negates any מחשבה of not being מצווה.) The Shittah of Chabad (and many others) is that there is not and cannot be a Jewish Neshomah who doesn’t have ANY Emunah in Hakadosh Baruch Hu because a Yid is a חלק אלוק ממעל whether he likes it or not. מתעסק is someone who eats Matzah thinking it’s a cracker or some similar scenario. If any male over 13 born to a Jewish mother puts on Tefillin while aware that they are Tefillin, he has done a Mitzvah unless בשעת מעשה he has כוונה הפכית to deliberately NOT be Yotzeh, which לכאורה is never the case. Yes, there are those who hold differently. לשיטתם there would then never be any מושג of קירוב unless the guy in the street is מקבל all 613 Mitzvos before he walks in the door… There are those who actually seem to hold so. Chabad and many others hold differently.
YYA> WRT Chabad Tefillin stands,
You don’t have to focus just on that one event. It is not as if Chabad just doing that. It is part of their trying to find and touch non-observant Jews.
Your opponent logically extends his “I do not care” towards these Jews to “caring about them is wrong”. Sad.
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