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This is not about “Zionism”, no one can hide behind fake “anti-Zionism” to oppose halachically mandated Jewish self-defense.
The halacha requires military self-defense, even on Shabbat, regardless if certain Satmar/Neturei Karta decide to Reform the Torah.
Hareidim, even if they are truly learning Torah all day, should be required to undergo a short basic training period so they can defend their own communities if necessary.
Post-Oct. 7 Security Strategy Advances as Arad Rifles Reach Local Defense Teams
“עכו”ם שצרו על עיירות ישראל אם באו על עסק ממון אין מחללין עליהם את השבת באו על עסק נפשות ואפי’ סתם יוצאים עליהם בכלי זיין ומחללים עליהם את השבת ובעיר הסמוכה לספר אפילו לא באו אלא על עסקי תבן וקש מחללין עליהם את השבת: הגה ואפילו לא באו עדיין אלא רוצים לבא [א”ז]:
”
(Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 329:6)Not if you are the aggressor which is the position of the non-Zionist Hareidim. The Palestinians had no issues with Jews have a self-governing autonomous community, but did object when the Zionists demanded that they have political control and that the Palestinians would be ruled by Jews. Note that when Palestinians discuss the status quo ante they want restored, it is to 1914 not 1947. Note the discussion of the “three oaths” by the original Satmar Rebbe. The solution that might work would to allow the anti-zionist Hareidim the same status under Israeli law as Palestinians (limited civil rights in return from an exemption from military service), Also consider that persecution of Jews who have a halachic objection to the establishment of a secular medinah and who are refusing to fight for it, are “conscientious objectors” under international law and that persecuting them would be a public relations disaster for the zionists since what little support the medinah has among the goyim is largely religious in nature and will not look favorably on persecuting Jews for being too religious.
While you are correct that the halacha would indeed mandate that Jews rise up and violently fight the Zionists (like any other masis umadiach, kofer, michalel shabos, etc), we have unfortunately lost the masora of how to be “moredim”, as our Gedolim have taught us that we must wait for Moshiach to fight these wars against Hashem when the zionists and their supporters will be destroyed.
The only remaining Jewish “self defense” is to continue being mocheh these zionist rashoyim and strengthen the religious Jewish community to uproot all of their propaganda and heresy from our midst.
You are living in a dream if you think those folks will be swayed by halachah. “The Gedolim Say” is all they have to respond. “Das Torah” trumps halachah when it comes to preserving the chareidi lifestyle and power structure. Any halachic authority (regardless of his gadlus in Torah) who paskens otherwise is not a “gadol”, because his hashkafa is “wrong”, his mesora is “wrong”, and in their eyes is likely an apikorus or oved avoda zara. Although HKBH lives within the dalet amos of halacha, the chareidi world lives within the dalet amos of hashkafah.
@RightJew (WrongZionist?):
It is the Zionists that discarded the Torah.The gedolim surely know that halacha in Shulchan Aruch at least as well as you do, and that has nothing to do with either group you mentioned (which you mentioned just because you presumably wanted to wrongly trash them anyways).
If you have ideas about the S”A or whatever else, you could start by consulting your LOR.
good point, you should ask your ques. to Gedolei Yisroel who paskened not to enlist, I’m sure they have good answers. Meanwhile presenting questions as if Gedolei Yisroel never learned Gmarra or Hilchos shabbos is kind of foolish
QUESTION:
“Why are the 20% of the population who are Arabs NOT being drafted?”
===========================
MY RESPONSE:Thank you for your comment. Please allow me to explain:
In Israel, Arabs are NOT DRAFTED INTO THE ARMY,
because the Arabs are THE ENEMY that
the Israel Army is working to defend against.In Israel, Arabs are NOT DRAFTED INTO THE ARMY,
because the Arabs CANNOT BE TRUSTED
with guns or with anything.Have a nice day!
Rabbi Yisroel Meir Lau (Chief Ashkenazic Rabbi
of Israel from 1993 CE to 2003 CE) said this:“Over the years I have had the very special opportunity
to pray near some of the greatest rabbis
on the holiest night of the year, Yom Kippur.
I have prayed near Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and Rabbi Leizer Shach.
I saw and heard them cry, shedding copious tears
as they recited the Ashamnu and Al Cheit prayers.And I saw them cry when they heard that our soldiers had been killed.”
SOURCE: At the Maggid’s Seder (commentary on
“this is the bread of affliction”, page 92) by Rabbi Paysach J. Krohn,
year 2020 CE, ArtScroll Mesorah Publications,
ISBN-10: 1422625753 ISBN-13: 978-1422625750
_________________________________________________
PERSONAL COMMENT 1:Most of those soldiers who died were NEVER religious and NEVER Shomer Shabbat.
Yet Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and Rabbi Leizer Shach
CRIED when they heard that “OUR soldiers” had been killed.Notice that Rabbi Paysach J. Krohn refers to them as
“OUR soldiers”, even though
they were never religious, and even though
they were never Shomer Shabbat, and even though
they took orders from Secular commanders of a Secular Jewish State.Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and Rabbi Leizer Shach
CRIED when they heard that “OUR soldiers” had been killed.Why do the Chareidi anti-Zionists not cry when
they hear that “OUR soldiers” have been killed?
_________________________________________________
PERSONAL COMMENT 2:FACT: If Israel were not a Jewish state, then NOBODY
would care at all about the so-called “Palestinians” (phoney-stinians).The proof is that NOBODY protests when Muslims kill Muslims.
The proof is that NOBODY complains when Arabs murder Arabs.If you truly believe that the merit of Torah Study [Limmud HaTorah]
is the ONLY thing that we Jews need to protect us
from genocidal Muslim terrorists, then you should PROVE IT
by establishing a yeshivah in Lebanon and another yeshivah in Damascus [Syria].Both Lebanon and Damascus are Halachically part of Eretz Yisrael.
You will NEVER do this, because you know that
without the protection of THE ISRAELI ARMY,
both yeshivahs would soon be: killed, murdered, massacred, destroyed,
annihilated and exterminated, and not even one Jew would remain alive.Pesachim 64B clearly teaches that “it is forbidden to rely on miracles”:
תלמוד בבלי מסכת פסחים דף סד/ב
תנן: ולא סמכינן אניסאIf a yeshivah were established in Lebanon or Damascus, where
The Israeli Army cannot protect them, then those yeshivahs
would violate the prohibition against relying on miracles.In year 1929 of Common Era, 67 righteous students of
the Chevron Yeshivah (HYD ZTL ZYA) were brutally murdered
by wicked bloodthirsty Muslims. Those righteous students
(HYD ZTL ZYA) had the merit of Torah Study, but without
the Israeli Army to protect them, they were all brutally murdered.May G*D avenge every one of them at least 50,000 times.
Housing Minister and UTJ chairman Yitzchak Goldknopf said:
“We owe hakaras hatov to IDF soldiers,
who put their lives on the line to protect
Klal Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael.”SOURCE: article titled: “Goldknopf Condemns Chareidim
Cursing At Soldiers In Bnei Brak” 2025 April 1 CE,
Yeshiva World News, www (dot) TheYeshivaWorld (dot) com__________________________________________
“Yitzchak Goldknopf, born in Jerusalem to a well-connected
Gur Hasidic family, is a prominent figure in the Israeli ultra-Orthodox
(Haredi) community and the United Torah Judaism (UTJ) party leader.”SOURCE: www (dot) JewishVirtualLibrary (dot) org
If you are trying to insinuate that theres an obligation to join the Israeli army based on this, sorry, its a nice try but not gonna work.
Set up a independent self-defense course and you’ll have many (C)hareidim join.
@RightJew – good luck with that approach. Those who refuse to help in the defense of Jewish lives will darshen away about how that doesn’t apply to these specific circumstances for one reason or another – ignoring the plain language of the Shulchan Aruch. They’ll also call you an Apikores for not blindly trusting the “Gedolei haDor” who say that this does not apply without even the fig leaf of explaining WHY it does not apply.
an Israeli Yid
not just self-defense but protection from an enemy attack.
Joining a mixed gender, left wing liberal, anti Torah army is not a mitzvah, it is an aveira.
According to that logic, everyone would be obligated to become a doctor in order to save lives. Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l famously rules that no such obligation exists. The chiyuv to save a life applies only if one already possesses the necessary knowledge; there is no obligation to learn how to do it in the first place. (Igros Moshe, Yoreh Deah II:151)
“Hareidim, even if they are truly learning Torah all day, should be required to undergo a short basic training period so they can defend their own communities if necessary.”
100% and they don’t have to go to the army app they need is a firearm course
Dear editor, I don’t know how you allowed israeli doc’s comment to be published! His comment is total slander against chareidim and total ignorance! If you indeed ask a Rav about what should and should not be published on your site, I ask you please inquire about this comment immediately!
guteyid> Set up a independent self-defense course and you’ll have many (C)hareidim join.
a gut point! Not sure why you expect someone else to set it up – the charedi community should do it on their own. Can start by policing people who attack buses and army events. Then, extend to protecting their communities.
Just> Everyone would be obligated to become a doctor in order to save lives. Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l famously rules that no such obligation exists.
Self-protection from attackers is different from being a doctor, and obligation would be different. And even when one is not obligated, we have a lot of people who are trying to be super-frum in mitzvos. Maseches Taanis describes a doctor who was visited by yeshiva shel maaleh more often than Abaye and Rava (despite his bloodletting methods were not the most effective ones – surely a fact known b’shmayim!). I would presume many would like to follow in his steps.
“While you are correct that the halacha would indeed mandate that Jews rise up and violently fight the Zionists (like any other masis umadiach, kofer, michalel shabos, etc), we have unfortunately lost the masora of how to be “moredim”, as our Gedolim have taught us that we must wait for Moshiach to fight these wars against Hashem when the zionists and their supporters will be destroyed.
1) I thought it was “maysis imaydiach”?
2) Violently fight would only apply to an Ir Ha-Nidachas. The three you listed would be executed, assuming the criteria were fulfilled. Learn Halacha.
3) Zionism – yeah, we know, you wish we would all die CV”H, because you’re a Sonei Yisrael par excellence.Most importantly:
4) You’re waiting for Moshaich to fight against Hashem, after the Zionists are destroyed? That is very interesting.SQUARE_ROOT: Without the Zionists to start the war with the Muslims, there would have been no pogrom in 1929. While the status of a “dhimmi” under the pre-1914 “Millet” system was very similar to the status of American Blacks under Jim Crow, it did not include a fear of pogroms. And, it can also be argued that the British, who wanted a Jewish-Arab conflict under their “divide and conquer” strategy, and the Zionists who wanted to purge the strongest anti-zionist faction, were quite happy with the massacre of hareidim and made a point of not interfering even though there is strong evidence that both had prior knowledge.
Re: “In Israel, Arabs are NOT DRAFTED INTO THE ARMY, because the Arabs CANNOT BE TRUSTED with guns or with anything.”
Actually many Arabs serve in the IDF, including some as senior officers (ranks that would be translated as “generals”). Those who do not serve in the IDF have reduced civil rights, but still more rights than Arab Muslims have in most Arab countries (which is why apparently half of Palestinians hold Israeli citizenship vote for Zionist parties).
An argument can be made that a Melekh Yisrael (which by definition is a usurper, since he isn’t from Beis David) who goes against Torah, can and should be overthrown. By drafting, and arming, Hareidim who see the zionist state as lacking legitimacy, you are giving weapons to those who will turn on the medinah. Do you really what Peleg to have automatic weapons??????
akuperma> An argument can be made that a Melekh Yisrael (which by definition is a usurper, since he isn’t from Beis David) who goes against Torah, can and should be overthrown
Not so fast. See discussion between Herod and Bava Ben Zuta in the beginning of Bava Basra – rabonim were very reluctant to talk against the government even when it was extremely bad.
akuperma> By drafting, and arming, Hareidim who see the zionist state as lacking legitimacy, you are giving weapons to those who will turn on the medinah.
Do peleg really represent ajority of charedi public? Probably, a majority of them will quickly learn how to live with the Army without comproming their principles – as long as the leadership let them do it.
Always_Ask_Questions: There appears to be significant minority of hareidim who regard the zionists as being enemies of Torah. There is certainly reason to see the destruction of Torah education and vilification of a Mitsvos-oriented lifestyle as matters of life and death (and if you compare the percentage of Jews who were Shomer Shabbos and Shomer Kasrus before Zionism, it certainly doesn’t make the Zionists look “frum”). So perhaps there is reason they see the zionists as being similar to Kapos, many of whom were executed by Jews when the opportunity arose. So perhaps one should note that the revolt against the Romans (with the Herodian family being Kapos-in Chief) was also against a lawfully constituted government, that many rabbanim worked with, and was supported by many Jews – and in Eretz Yisrael the Jews who killed the anti-Torah but established government are hailed as heroes. Also remember that any Hareidi who insists on doing mitsvos in a manner objected to by the secular leadership of the army may not be anti-zionist when he goes, but will be anti-zionist when he goes out. And I’m not even discussing the “Three Oaths” or whether it is allowed to kill unarmed enemy civilians without approval from a Sanhedrin, a Navi and/or a Kohen Gadol who checks the Urim v’Tumim, or during a war of conquest that lacks proper Torah authorization if it is permitted to kill enemy soldiers when you have the opportunity to safely stand down.
And think giving guns to the anti-zionist hareidim is a clever idea? “Clever by half” as the goyim say. Smarter to exempt any Hareidi as a conscientious objector, and give them the same rights and benefits as are given the Palestinians holding Israeli passports who choose not to serve in the IDF- and rely on incentives to encourage Hareidim (and others – actually many non-Hareidim also refuse to serve in the IDF).
AAK – ” as long as the leadership let them do it” strikes the nail on the head. It will never happen b/c the idea of a chareidi following orders / instruction from anyone other than a Torah authority is an anathema. It destroys the power dynamic inherent in chareidi hashkafah.
AAK – ” as long as the leadership let them do it” strikes the nail on the head. It will never happen b/c the idea of a chareidi following orders / instruction from anyone other than a Torah authority is an anathema. It destroys the power dynamic inherent in chareidi hashkafah.
israelidoc> It will never happen b/c the idea of a chareidi following orders / instruction from anyone other than a Torah authority is an anathema.
yes and no. There is a video on front page with R Landau saying that bochurim should not be at the demonstration and that situation is not simple and leadership is “doing the best they can”. So, who are all these people demonstrating while ignoring/or being ignorant of the instructions?
My theory is that this is a history-driven sociological trap: leadership established separate communities (Rambam’s deserts in the words of Chazon Ish), had to use separatist ideology to protect them (and this worked well both in Israel and US), and now these ideologies took over the crowds beyond the temporary measures they were, and leadership is unable to change them, in part because the protection is based on “we are right, and they are always evil”, but also because they can’t go against the load crowds. Emes is the biggest loss of this complex process.
Wrong Zionist:
It is you who seem to be using Zionism as a facade and diversion, as implied by your nasty comment against Satmar (and NK).
Nobody in Satmar or NK (those are very different), to anyone’s public knowledge, has forbidden following that halacha. For you to (falsely, in general) condemn them for doing so implies that you are doing exactly that: “using Zionism as a facade and diversion”.As posted, if you really feel that Chareidim need some sort of defense training and that doing so would be a fulfillment of that halacha then you could speak to an LOR to ask why the gedolim haven’t done so. As posted, they are obviously well aware of that halacha.
Your needless and false bashing of Satmar (and NK) is wrong, and makes it seem that Zionism is indeed the reason for your post.
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