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1. Yes, Hashem does everything, including the Holocaust and its partner the State of Israel.
2. We cannot know what is in a person’s heart, but we are obligated to publicly reject them if they act publicly like an evil person (like a michalel shabbos). This includes tinok shenishba (see Rambam’s statement “don’t kill them so quickly”).
3. Secular people cannot be part of klal yisroel and it is forbidden to love them. This is a straight chazal (Pirkei d’R’ Nusen) based of a pasuk tehilim and brought in sefer Chofetz Chaim.
4. Certainly your love of evildoers causes your hatred of kosher Jews (as chazal teach, see rashi on first pasukim of bechikosai), and your false religion of love is true sinas chinam that pushes aways moshiach.
@riva, please don’t hesitate to show this to one of your charedi rabbunim in beitar as I am sure they will correct you. If I am in the wrong, please get any Torah sources from them. Until then, please stop spreading heresy and stop joining those who are battling against Hashem and His Torah.Here are the words of Shulchan Aruch YD 267 84: עבד שאמר לעלות לארץ ישראל כופין את רבו לעלות עמו או ימכור אותו למי שיעלהו שם רצה האדון לצאת לחוצה לארץ אינו יכול להוציא את עבדו עד שירצה ודין זה בכל זמן אפילו בזמן הזה שהארץ ביד עובדי כוכבים:
“When a slave asks his master to move to Eretz Yisrael, we compel his master to move there with him or to sell him to someone who is moving there. When a master living in Eretz Yisrael desires to move to the diaspora, he cannot compel the slave to move with him against his will. This law applies in all times, even in the present era, when the land is ruled by gentiles.” That does sound very straightforward. “In all times, even in the present era…” doesn’t seem to leave a lot of wiggle room.
The Avnei Nezer quotes this psak in his long teshuva about יישוב ארץ ישראל nowadays.
As to why the medinah came into being through secular Jews, I have heard two additional suggestions: 1) to avoid kitrugim, just like מלכות בית דוד came into being through Yehudah and Tamar, Rus, and all the rest of them 2) יכין רשע וילבש צדיק (ב”מ סא:)To anon1m0us
I loved your point, but this isn’t reserved for those who post on line. People generally learn to convince themselves that their position is correct. To that end they latch on to a Chazal and reject any equally valid statements which differ with their Chazal.
To somejewiknow, I was once a tinok shenishba, but then I was fortunate to meet some nice frum people who decided “not to kill me quickly.” And they shared Shabbos and were kind. They taught me about Yiddishkeit. Then I became a “Baalat Teshuva. Not only me, but at least a million more. I then went on to influence others to do mitzvos and keep the Torah. You call this heresy?!
When I made the comment, Hashem does everything, You responded Hashem does everything, including the Holocaust and its partner the State of Israel. Why do you use the language of the extreme left who wants us destroyed?Small one:
It is truly pathetic to watch you hide behind distorted “history” to mask what is clearly hatred for Jewish agency, even one that is controlled (or allowed) by HKB”H. You speak of “history” as if it were a fairy tale where Jews lived in a peaceful utopia before the Zionists arrived.
Your so-called analysis is not only historically illiterate but morally bankrupt.
1) You claim the Zionists “invaded” against the wishes of the Jews already there. Which Jews? The ones who had been praying three times a day for two millennia to return? Or the ones who were being slaughtered in the 1929 Hebron massacre—long before your “Zionist state” even existed? The “Old Yishuv” was starving and vulnerable; they were being preyed upon by the very “neighbors” you think were peaceful until the Zionists showed up. To call Jews returning to their ancestral homeland an “invasion” is to adopt the vocabulary of the PLO. You aren’t speaking the language of Torah; you’re speaking the language of those who seek our destruction.
2) You lament that the Zionists fought the British Mandate. Do you mean the same British Mandate that issued the White Paper of 1939, slamming the doors of Eretz Yisroel shut while the crematoria of Europe were being warmed up? You are literally mourning the fact that Jews fought against a colonial power that was sentencing millions of our brothers and sisters to death by denying them entry. Your “shita” apparently dictates that we should have politely asked the British for permission to not be turned into ash. That isn’t piety; it’s a grotesque betrayal of Ahavas Yisroel.
3) You suggest the Zionists should have waited for a “new mandate” after 1948. History, meaning real hidstory and not your sectarian fan-fiction, shows that the UN had zero intention or capability of protecting Jews. They watched as five Arab armies prepared to “drive the Jews into the sea.” Your “solution” was for Jews to remain passive, stateless, and defenseless while being surrounded by genocidal regimes. You blame the “wicked Zionists” for declaring independence, but you offer no alternative other than “wait to be massacred and hope for a miracle.”
4) You claim the Zionists “did not care about Jewish lives.” This is the most offensive projection in your entire rant. The State of Israel has rescued more Jews from more corners of the earth than your entire ideological movement has even bothered to acknowledge. While you sit in your armchair judging the “wickedness” of sovereignty, the State of Israel is the only reason half the Jewish population on earth isn’t currently living in a cellar or a graveyard.
5) The “forever wars” weren’t launched by Zionists; they were launched by those who refuse to accept Jewish existence in any form. By blaming the victim for the war launched against them, you have abandoned the most basic moral clarity. You are essentially saying that if the Jews had just stayed in Galus and remained “good little victims,” there would be peace.
@somejewionow
This is why learning Torah should be restricted to the top few. Having someone with a little knowledge spew kefira dressed as a frum Jew is more dangerous than a secular Jew.
Pirkei d’R’ Nusen is a Medrish, not halacha. We do not poskrn from a Medrish. It directly contradicts the genera “Yisrael af al pi shechata, Yisrael hu” A Jew remains a Jew even if they sin (Sanhedrin 44a).
As a Kofer, you deliberately left out the next Halacha of what the Rambam was saying אַף עַל פִּי שֶׁשָּׁמַע אַחַר כָּךְ שֶׁהוּא יְהוּדִי
וְרָאָה הַיְּהוּדִים וְדַתָם — הֲרֵי הוּא כְּאַנּוּס,
שֶׁהֲרֵי גִּדְּלוּהוּ עַל טָעוּתָם.So thank you for backing up my earlier statement that today’s Yeshiva Bochorim are the Rodfim. You classically have shown how someone turns the Torah into a weapon.
somejew, could you pls quote in full the chofetz chaim you say is supporting your position re: “secular people”
anon1m0us:
By your “logic”, the partisans fighting the Nazis were rodfim. Better they should have left occupied Poland than divert resources from the Nazis murdering Jews.Riva:
The Holocaust, which Zionists worship, was also from Hashem. That was obviously din, not a good thing. Regarding the Zionist paradise, there’s no need for “perhaps” this or that, because all the Torah authorities have spoken about this already and, to anyone with half a brain, the cataclysmic disaster of Zionism is painfully obvious. As to what happened in 1948, the Zionist “State” coming into being was a result of prayers answered for that “State” even though that was horrifically bad for the Jews and prevented Mashiach from coming then according to both the Brisker Rav and Satmar Rav.Nobody is speaking badly about Jews in the holy land who have become more religious, etc. Judgement is indeed for Hashem. But, no, it is not forbidden to speak about everyone. Hilchos L”H dictate about whom it is and is not permitted to speak.
We can bring Mashiach by changing our attitudes towards the idol and not perpetuating the same mistake made in 1948 of praying for that idol which literally stopped Mashiach from coming then according to both the Brisker Rav and Satmar Rav.
Small one:
Zionists do not worship the Holocaust. Stop lying.
Thank you!!! Absolutely brilliant! Blessings from us in Israel, Betar Ilit, Riva
the problem is that there are a huge amount people in Israel who have messiah complexes, Peleg thinks that is they lay down on Highway 3 and stop traffic they are doing the raton Hashem, the settler who lives in a caravan on a hilltop surrounded by Arabs think they are doing the ratzon Hashem,
Bottom line warped people always gravitated to Israel and the warpedness keeps getting worse
@ZSK:
Before calling names, you might want to learn the actual history, not nonsense propaganda (and just ignorance).
No, it is your so-called analysis which is totally ignorant. To your “points”:1. The Chevron Massacre of course occurred AFTER the Zionists invaded and BECAUSE OF Zionism.
To clarify, though, the Jews who moved there non-politically, like the students of the GR”A and how Chovevei started, are obviously not “invaders”. Even the Mufti YM”S told Rav Yosef Chaim that he had no problem with Jews coming to live there, only if the Jews would try to rule over them which is what the Zionists did in the name of Jewry. But Jews, like anyone else, may choose to live anywhere in the world. So, “invasion” remains appropriate when describing the Zionists.2. Your question about the White Paper and the Brits “slamming shut” the doors in 1939 again totally missed the historical context. This was AFTER decades of Zionist agitation after the Zionists invaded DECADES before, including Zionist terror against both the local British and the Arabs. In other words, if not for the Zionists, not only would the Holocaust not have happened, but the British would have opened the doors of Palestine to Jews, not slammed them shut due to Zionist agitation in the holy land.
3. The British were perfectly capable of defending the Jews, but the Zionists agitated and terrorized both the Arabs and British leading up to 1948. The Zionist precursor-armies had been in action for decades before 1948. As well, the only reason the Arabs massed in 1948 was the impending Zionist declaration of their “State”. Regardless, even if that Arab massing had been totally unrelated, the Zionists could still have used their armies as they had but not taking that final inflammatory step of declaring a “State”.
4. This is the most obvious of all the points noted. The Brisker Rav criticized Agudah for even contemplating working with the Zionists prior to 1948 due to the tremendous rivers of Jewish blood that would be and were needed to establish that “State”. The Satmar Rav writes the same criticism about the Zionists’ war in 1967, that it, too, could have been avoided. Zionism also caused the Holocaust. That’s not very pro-Jewish life. In that Holocaust, the Zionists explicitly and repeatedly (and confirmed years later that they would not have done any differently) and proudly prioritized Zionism over saving Jewish lives. Zionism above all else, including Jewish lives. Ask any honest Zionist for the truth; it is that simple.
5. No, the forever wars were launched by the Zionists who should never have invaded in the first place and who agitated terror and wars in the decades prior to 1948.
How about the settlers in the Chareidi settlements of Kiryat Sefer, Brachfeld, Modiin Illit, Beitar Illit, which are all located over the green line?
Halevai the Satmar chassidim were partisans during WW2 and not listened to their Rebbe. Millions would still be alive today.
The fact you can even consider another Jew a Nazi brings doubt on your yichus. You definitely have a pagam since you sound like a Palistinian. It seems by the way you talk, Palistinian and Satmar have more in common than Satmar and Judaism.The only warped thing is this post. it makes no sense and spreads hatred.
zsk:
They very much do. It’s a big part of their religion. They have a “national” “holiday” dedicated to the Holocaust, and consider it a prime example of their fantastical reason for existing as a “nation” and the resultant need to sacrifice humans on the altar of Zionism. The Zionists constantly crank out propaganda that the Holocaust would have never happened had Zionism and its army been around then, conveniently not mentioning that Zionism was very much around then and the Zionists not only caused it but contributed to it by, for example, lobbying governments against allowing Jews to escape to their countries because that wouldn’t look good for Zionism (even though the British had closed the Holy Land due to Zionist agitation there).anon1m0us:
Making assumptions about people isn’t very smart.
Also, as the whole world knows, had the Zionist Kastner not lied to all the Hungarian Jews, they all could have escaped a few miles away and the Nazis would not have been able to mass murder the million Jews of Hungary. And no Rav ever collaborated with the Nazis, unlike the evil Zionists.
Finally, a Jew could, according to the Torah, be worse than a Nazi. Gadol haMachtio min haHorgo, as noted, for example.
The fact that you cannot accept the Torah’s views means perhaps you are the one who should be concerned for a “pegam”.It’s time for Yeshiva World to shut down this post! I’m hearing such loshen hora about Jews living in Israel, especially those living over the Green line, referred to as warped and evil. Also, the sinat chinim is not to be believed. SHUT THIS DOWN!!
Is laying down is middle of a highway to protest something being warped? yes
Is living in a caravan without running water surrounded by Arabs warped? YesYou may not like the statement but it’s not loshen horah
So if the Satmar Rebbe told his chassidim to remain and Kastner said to go, who would you listen too? Stop blaming Kastner when the Satmar Rebbe could have easily warned his Chassidim. Funny, though Kastnerwas good enough for the Rebbe to use.
In this week’s Parsha, Moshe was punished with his staff turning into a snake and his hand full of tzoraas, for talking Lashon Horah about the Yidden in Egypt. Yidden that did Avoida Zarah. Yidden who had no bris. Yidden who looked like goyim. How much more will you and your gedolim be punished for talking Lashon Horah against Yidden who have at least one mitzvah under their belt ( Yishuv Eretz Yisroel). So, yes, you and your ilk have a pgam in your yichus.
@riva
i can’t begin to understand why you make fun of the words of the Rambam. The rest of what you wrote is equally nonsensical.
@anon1m0us
nothing I wrote was novel. they are all points made clearly and regularly by both contemporary and classic gadolim.
I don’t know what you mean to say in your criticism, as I referenced the sefer Chofetz Chaim which, in line with a long line of gadolim before him, brings my point l’halucheh.
The gemara “af al pi” means (over there) that one single aveira (the hava amina of the gemara) would sever a Jew from being Jewish, and the gemara says that is not the case. The way it is uses in poskim, like in baal ha tanya’s shulchan aruch, is that even a kofer is still obligated in the mitzvos despite not being part of klal yisroel.
see this usage from shulcha aruch harav, hilchos ribis:עו מומר שיצא מן הכלל דינו כנכרי לענין רבית שמותר להלוותו ברבית
שכיון שעובד ע”ז מין הוא ומורידין אותו למיתה וכיון שגופו מופקר ומותר
לאבדו כ”ש ממונו ומותר לאבדו וה”ה ליטלו לעצמו באיזו תחבולה שאפשר
ואין לחוש שמא יצא ממנו זרע טוב כיון שנטמע בין הנכרים . וי”א שכל
שאינו אדוק בע”ז כגון כומר לע”ז אינו מין ואין מורידין גופו וה”ה שממונו
אינו מופקר וטוב לחוש לדבריהם אם אפשר להשמט ממנו שלא להלוותו :
עז אבל ללוות ממנו ברבית אסור לד”ה משום ולפני עור כו’ ומשום לא תשיך
לאחיך שאף שהמומר אינו נחשב אח אצלינו אנו נחשבים אחים אצלו
ומוזהר שלא ליקח ממנו נשך שאע”פ שחטא ישראל הוא והנותן לו נשך עובר
בבל תשיך שהיא אזהרה ללוה שלא לגרום למלוה לישוך כל שהמלוה
מוזהר עליוhere is an AI translation for am harutzim:
Seif 76
A Mumar (apostate) who has completely departed from the collective [of the Jewish people] has the status of a Gentile regarding Ribbis, such that it is permitted to lend to him with interest. Since he worships Avodah Zarah (idolatry), he is considered a Min (heretic) and [the law is that] we cast him down to death (moridin oso). Since his body is declared ownerless (hefker) and it is permitted to destroy him, how much more so is his money [ownerless] and permitted to be destroyed; and the same applies to seizing it for oneself by any stratagem possible.
One need not be concerned that perhaps “good seed” (righteous offspring) will issue from him, since he has intermingled (nitma) among the Gentiles.
However, there are those who say (Yeish Omrim) that as long as he is not devout (aduk) in Avodah Zarah—for example, a priest of Avodah Zarah—he is not considered a Min and we do not cast down his body; consequently, his money is not deemed hefker. It is proper to be concerned for their words, if it is possible to evade him so as not to lend to him.
Seif 77
However, to borrow from him with interest is forbidden according to all opinions, due to Lifnei Iver (“Do not place a stumbling block…”) and due to “Lo Sashich L’Achicha” (“You shall not cause your brother to take interest” – Deut 23:20). For even though the Mumar is not considered a “brother” to us, we are considered “brothers” to him, and he is warned not to take neshech (interest)—for even though an Israelite has sinned, he remains an Israelite.
The one giving him the neshech violates “Lo Sashich”, which is a warning to the borrower not to cause the lender to “bite” (take interest), [a prohibition applicable] as long as the lender is subject to the warning.you asked me about a “next part” fo the rambam, but I quoted the end of that sugya. you seem to be refereing to a preceding statement. reveiw and get back to me and try to make a coherent point.
@always_ask_questions
the place where the chofetz chaim quotes that prikei d’r’nusen is in
chofetz chaim. section 8. halach 5:ה. וכל זה האיסור של לשון הרע הוא דוקא על איש שעל פי דין תורה הוא עדיין בכלל “עמיתך”, דהיינו עם שאיתך בתורה ובמצות. אבל אותן האנשים שמכירם שיש בהם אפיקורסות, מצוה לגנותם ולבזותם, בין בפניהם ובין שלא בפניהם, בכל מה שהוא רואה עליהם או שומע עליהם. דכתיב: “לא תונו איש את עמיתו” ולא “תלך רכיל בעמיך”, והם אינם בכלל זה, שאינם עושים מעשה עמך. ונאמר: “משנאיך ה’ אשנא ובתקוממיך אתקוטט” וכו’.
ואפיקורוס נקרא הכופר בתורה ובנבואה מישראל, בין בתורה שבכתב ובין בתורה שבעל פה, ואפילו הוא אומר: כל התורה מן השמים, חוץ מפסוק אחד או קל וחומר אחד או גזירה שוה אחת או דקדוק אחד – גם הוא בכלל זה.here is an AI translation for am harutzim:
This entire prohibition regarding Lashon Hara applies specifically to an individual who, according to Torah law, is still categorized as “your colleague” (amitecha)—meaning, a people who are with you in Torah and Mitzvos.
However, regarding those individuals whom one knows to possess Apikorsus (heresy), it is a Mitzvah to denigrate them and shame them, whether in their presence or not, regarding anything one sees or hears about them. For it is written: “Do not aggrieve, each man his colleague” (Leviticus 25:17) and “Do not go as a talebearer among your people” (Leviticus 19:16)—and these [heretics] are not included in this category, for they do not perform “the deeds of your people” (ma’aseh amcha). Furthermore, it is stated: “Those who hate You, Hashem, I shall hate, and with those who rise up against You, I shall contend,” etc. (Psalms 139:21).
An Apikores is defined as one who denies the Torah and prophecy from Israel, whether the Written Torah or the Oral Torah. Even if he states, “The entire Torah is from Heaven,” except for a single verse, or a single Kal Vachomer (a fortiori deduction), or a single Gezeirah Shavah (verbal analogy), or a single grammatical inference—he is also included in this category.HaKatan: you know who lied to Jews? Yoel Teitelbaum. He claimed that it was better to stay and be killed than to be saved by Zionists. He stopped the Zionists from saving his followers. Then he cowardly snuck out, hypocritically going with Kastner (who you love to attack) and saving himself, while leaving his followers to be slaughtered.
That’s why he was so adamantly opposed to Israel even after the State was founded – because if he didn’t, then he’d be branded as a murderer, for abandoning his followers.
As it is, he did that anyway. He had blood on his hands.katan lives in his make believe world
in katans alternate universe the zionists ‘invaded’ EY
completely false
the zionists immigrated to EY — with the express permission of the authorities at the time
the overwhelming majority had permission
towards the end the number of illegal immigrants climbed
btw – rav wosner the posek hador and his wife immigrated illegally
they got off their boat and waded ashore – undetected
did rav wosner zatsal ‘invade’ ??
no , he did not . he immigrated
like the zionists
they all immigrated …
if there was someone who ‘invaded’ EY , it were the five arab armies , in may 1948 after the british withdrawal
thats some historical accuracy for katan, our revisionist ‘historian’ ….
.
.
.@somejewwiknow,
Like I said, a little knowledge extremely dangerous. This is why a lot of Yeshiva Bochorim today are Rodfim. They learn a shtickel Torah any they become Keyboard Rabbanim.
When Pirkai D’ Rav Nosson wrote אֱהֹב אֶת הַצַּדִּיקִים וְשְׂנָא אֶת הָרְשָׁעִים, he does not mean Zionists or their like. He is referring to מינים / אפיקורסים.
The Chofetz Chaim in Klas 4 clearly states in the Be’er Mayim Chaim:
אבל בזמנינו רוב האנשים נחשבים כתינוק שנשבה, ואין לדונם כמרידים ומינים חס ושלום, ואדרבה מצוה לאהבם ולקרבם לתורהThe Chofetz Chaim even wrote in Ahavat Chesed, chelek ב׳, ואפילו מי שרחוק מן התורה והמצוות מחמת חינוך גרוע, הרי הוא בכלל ישראל ומצוה גדולה לאהבו ולרחם עליו
somejew > Secular people cannot be part of klal yisroel and it is forbidden to love them
chofetz chaim> ואפיקורוס נקרא הכופרok, so we found where you seem to disagree with me and, I think, most people here: are “secular” Israelis apikoresim? Note that this group includes “traditional” Jews who might not always be observant, but do not deny anything. Another group are “tikonot” that learned Tanach in their school version and do not have knowledge to be a kofer at all. Maybe some Haaertz writers (and even readers) qualify for apikoresim.
Note that sefer חָפֵץ חַיִּים was published in 1870s, where – in Litvish context – there were real apikoeresim to deal with. R Salanter at about same time moved to Paris as he felt that it is more productive to work with those at the bottom (tinokos) than those in Lita who were going down (apikoresim, if you want).
If someone has halachik discussion about how to consider modern Israelis in terms of עמיתך
DaMoshe:
Your disrespect to the Satmar Rav in calling him by his first name as if he were some guy on the street is a disgrace. By contrast, nobody here refers to your demi-god idol as “JB”, even though his peers referred to him that way and even though Rav Aharon Kotler noted that Rabbi Dr. Soloveichik was “responsible for all the tuma in America”.When did the Satmar Rav lie to the Jews and in which letter can you find that lie?
Rav Elchonon Wasserman did state explicitly the Torah’s view that it is wrong to go from a place of physical danger into a place of physical danger. The Brisker Rav concluded. In fact, the reason he left Europe and went to the holy land is that he assessed that while the holy land was in tremendous physical danger, as Hitler YM”S planned to invade and slaughter all the Jews there (and was stopped only by miracles), staying in Europe with its spiritual (not physical) danger was the worse option of the two. Your implication about the Satmar Rav, then, is totally backwards. He was, of course, right.
You Zionists are so pitifully bound to your idol that whenever there is mention of Kastner’s clear lies and betrayal of Jews (causing a million Jews to be helplessly slaughtered by the Nazis) – which a Zionist court backed, too, not that anyone who isn’t Zionist particularly cares – your only response is what-about-ism to falsely and against the Torah smear the gedolim. Eileh elohecha, Zionists.
I’m not sure what you are talking about! If you think that people in Israel live in caravans without running water, then you know nothing about Israel. You may have heard slanted news reports of “settler outposts,” but please don’t get sucked into the blood libel against Jews living over the Green line. Israel is very developed and beautiful. The quality of life at this point probably surpasses people in frum neighborhoods in the US. Even Jews, of whom most are frum, residing over the Green line live mostly in nice apartments or villas with lots of land and trees. Bertar Ilit has around 80,000 frum Yidden. It’s a wonderful city with fabulous shopping, and it is very safe to walk around, even late at night. There are beautiful displays throughout the city and excellent activities for children and adults. There are countless shuls and excellent schools/yeshivas throughout the neighborhood. The sound of learning and davening can be heard all day.
As far as people “lying in the street in protest…i don’t know because it’s not a common event, and has certainly not happened in Betar.. Perhaps it’s also a style of protesting in the US, and I know there have been many pro-Hamas and antisemitic protests going on in the US with people doing all sorts of crazy things, including violent acts against Jews.
Lastly, I’d like to mention this business with “zionists.” I’d like to know what your definition of a Zionist is because no one mentions Zionism anymore. I don’t hear this term! When you have a population BH almost 8 million Jews living in Israel with its own army, we’ve moved past Zionism into developing Israel, which includes spreading Yiddishkeit and enjoying the gift and inheritance which Hashem has given us.I’d appreciate it if you would stop belittling me! An elderly woman and Jew living over the Green line in Israel!
Small one:
Your post is a masterclass in historical revisionism and victim-blaming. You’re attempting to sanitize the most brutal anti-Jewish violence of the 20th century by suggesting that if Jews had simply remained “quiet” and “submissive”, their enemies would have treated them with kindness.
To suggest that Haj Amin al-Husseini was a friend to the Jews until “Zionism” appeared is a complete fabrication. And you’re a disgusting liar for suggesting anything to the contrary. The Mufti was a Nazi collaborator who met with Hitler and actively lobbied for the “Final Solution” to be extended to the Middle East. The historical record, especially the Shaw Commission Report and police records and documented meetings between Hitler YMSV”Z and Husseini demonstrate this.
As far as the Chevron Massacre, Al-Husseini distributed leaflets claiming that Jews were planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa Mosque. That’s a religious blood libel with nothing to do with a non-existent state. The Jews slaughtered in Hebron were largely the “non-Zionist” Old Yishuv, the people you claim were safe. But I can go futher back. In April 1920, he used the Nabi Musa pilgrimage as a vehicle for anti-Jewish violence. In the 1910s, he focused on the idea that Jews inherently “defile” Islamic holy sites and in 1918 started the “Al-Aqsa is in Danger” narrative.
There is also the transcript of the meeting between Hitler and Haj Amin al-Husseini on November 28, 1941, where the Mufti thanked Hitler for his “sympathy for the Palestinian cause” and Hitler explicitly told him that the German goal was the “total destruction of the Judeo-Communist empire in Europe” and the “destruction of the Jewish element residing in the Arab sphere.” The Mufti didn’t protest; he asked how he could help.
That is not not a man who was just “anti-Zionist”, but a foundational architect of modern Islamist Judenhasse and a literal partner in the Nazi genocide.
And you’re whitewashing him, Sonei Yisrael.
Let’s be clear: The only Arabs willing to tolerate Jews in the Middle East were the past rulers of Mecca – the current Jordanian monarchy, who were kicked out of the Arabian Peninsula by Ibn Al-Saud and his insane cleric Ibn Al-Wahhab. But that monarchy only was in favor of any significant Jewish presence so long as Muslims remained the absolute authorities.
As for the insane claim that “if not for the Zionists, the Holocaust would not have happened” is offensive in the extreme. You’ve just absolved Hitler and the Nazi party of their primary role in the genocide. You’re ignoring the fact that the Nazis targeted Jews as an ethnoreligious group, not politics. Whether a Jew was a Zionist, a Communist, or a Satmarer, they went to the same gas chambers. You’re also ignoring Hitler’s own documented Judenhasse from his young adulthood and ten years developing his Judenhasse ideology.
The White Paper: You missed my point, like usual. Zionism wasn’t part of the equation, appeasing Arab violence was. To suggest the British would have “opened the doors” during the war if Jews hadn’t “agitated” is a fantasy; the British spent the 1940s hunting down Jewish refugee ships and sending survivors to camps in Cyprus. Moreover, the British were not “perfectly capable of defending the Jews”. History proves it. During the Arab Revolt and the 1929 Riots, the British frequently stood by or disarmed Jewish defense groups while Arab mobs attacked. In 1948, the British abandoned the Jews to a five-army Arab invasion, even handing over key strategic police forts to the Arab Legion. Do I need to also remind you of what happened in York in the 1100s and the fact that Jews were expelled from England for some 366 years?
Your claim that Zionists sacrificed Jews for the State may be true. But you are absoutely ignoring the fact that the only entity on earth trying to get Jews out of Europe when every other door (USA, UK, Canada) was shut was the Zionist movement. The “rivers of blood” the Brisker Rav spoke of were indeed a tragedy, but you prefer the “rivers of blood” of the Crusades, the Chmielnicki massacres, Kishinev, the Farhud, and the Holocaust where Jews died with no way to fight back.
You calling Jews “invaders” in the only land where we are indigenous is adopting a Judenhasse position. By your warped logic, the students of the Vilna Gaon and the Chovevei Zion were okay because they were “non-political”. But once those Jews decided they didn’t want to be slaughtered every twenty years and built an army to prevent it, they became “invaders.”
You only accept a Jew if he is passive. The moment a Jew takes action , he is “equally evil” to a Christian.
Face it: You’re actually arguing that Jewish safety is found in “pleasing the master” and that any attempt at self-determination – even if guided by HKB”H – is a sin tantamount of the 3 cardinal aveiros. You are ignoring the fact that the Arabs and the Nazis didn’t care about the “Three Oaths”, they cared about killing Jews.
None of this is Torah; it’s a suicide pact masquerading as piety. It uses the names of great Rabbonim to justify a position that leaves Jews defenseless in a world that has proven, time and again, it will not protect them.
One last thing, Small One: In your post, if we replaced the word “Zionist” with “Jew”, it would be virulent Judenhasse.
Think about that.
HaKatan said:
“The Holocaust, which Zionists worship…”
__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:Another false accusation [Motzi Shem Ra] from HaKatan.
Why am I not surprised?
Since you mentioned the topic of idol worship,
I remind you that a certain community of Jews
— whose name I will will NOT mention,
to avoid Lashon HaRa — has been accused
of literally WORSHIPING their Gemaras.If you think long and hard, you might
figure out who these people are.@Riva,
My wife Grandmother lived in Bnai Brak, her other set of grandparents lived in Jerusalem, I have quite a few uncles/ aunts/ cousins who live there. I familiar with Batair, my meschutan has a few brothers there, I have been to every part of Israel from the Negev to Har Chermon, that being said you have people who live in caravan on a hilltop surrounded by arabs, and no they NOT heroic, they are seriously warped@anon1m0us
Your earlier claim against the Torah (Pikei d’R’ Nusen) that I mentioned was that it is “not halacha” (whatever you might mean by that), so I quoted its use in sefer Chofetz Chaim. So now you agree that it is “halacha”?Moving on, you seem to have invented quotes from both the seforim “Chofetz Chaim” and “Ahavas Chessed”. I certainly cannot find anything close to what you claim is written in them, and both those seforim are available on Hebrew Books.
As Hebrew Books is one of the few urls permitted in CR, please provide exact references to your fraudulent quotes by pointing to at least a specific page in those public sources.https://hebrewbooks.org/14233
https://hebrewbooks.org/15141
@always_ask_questions
I don’t know what you might mean by “secular”. I would rather this conversation be Torah-centric (sorry zionists) in which case the baseline of who is called עמיתך is:
1) michalel shabbos b’farhesia
2) generally keeps common mitzvos (kosher, mezuzah, tahars mishpuche, tzniyos, mechitza, etc)
3) believes in the 13 principals of faithBreaking ANY one of the above three “red lines” would remove a jewish person from עמיתך, and this includes a tinok shenishba.
If someone does not keep shabbos AND does not keep kosher AND does not believe the Talmud is binding Divine law, would you at least agree that such a person is not עמיתך?
You really do not see the farce on your words? R’ Elchonon went from a safe location, the US, back to Europe, to die with his students.. Obviously, he did not actually say “that it is wrong to go from a place of physical danger into a place of physical dange”. If he did, he was not serious about it since he did it and was murdered.
The Brisker Rav, R’ Yitzchok Zev, emigrated in 1935, well before WW2 so I do not know what you are talking about.
As you can see, one leader, R’ Yoel ran away when his communicty was being slaughtered. The other, R’ Elchonon, ran to Europe to stay with his people; even in death. That defines a leader! The Slonim Rebbe also had the opportunity to escape, but stayed and said ““I may have made a mistake in staying here, but what can I do? Small children are depending on me!”
The Piaseczner Rebbe told people who tried to get him to escape, “I do not intend to abandon the front and I cannot leave Polish Jewry!”Rebbetzin Eva Halberstam of Kosice, the widow of Stropkov Rebbe said at the steps of Auschwitz crematorium, “I am witnessing the end of Hungarian Jewry. The [Hungarian] government enabled large parts of the communities to escape. The Jews asked the Chassidic rabbis what to do and they always calmed them down. The Belzer Rebbe said that in Hungary we would get away with mere anxiety. Now the bitter moment has come when Jews can no longer save themselves. Indeed the Heavens have hidden [the truth] from them. But they themselves escaped at the very last moment to the Land of Israel. They have saved themselves but have abandoned the people like lambs to slaughter! Master of the Universe! In my last minutes of life I beseech you, forgive them for the great desecration of the Divine Name [chillul Hashem]!!!
So no, I do not care what R’ yoel has to say or any of his books that he wrote. He lost that right the moment he escaped like a coward! As the Rebebetzin wrote, he is a walking Chillul Hashem!
To the group
Jerry Seinfeld had a great joke, “Imagine that there were aliens who came down from “Yenimsvelt” and were observing humans. They’d see dogs relieving themselves and some person picking up for them. Who do you think they’d think is the master?” I thought of this when looking at this thread. If Hitler was alive and was reading it, he would be in Heaven thinking that Jews hate themselves as much as he hates us. How can someone be an Orthodox Jew and not have any basic sense of Menschlichkeit? The NK supporters hate any Jew who they perceive as a Zionist, even if that person is far removed from the Zionist credo. On the other hand, there are frum Jews who have taken it upon themselves to ridicule accepted Gedolim because they take exception with their views. There are certain basic ground rules that must be followed. I haven’t joined in this thread because it’s a Chillul Hashem to say the least.
ZSK:
I have tried answering, but I cannot educate you; you need to learn both the Torah and, liHavdil, the history, from before 1948, not projecting your imagination of what things would have been before that.No, I did not suggest they had to remain “quiet and submissive”. As the Torah points out, we are required in galus to “lay low” and also not antagonize the gentiles, and the Jews who lived in the holy land before the Zionists invaded a little over a century ago did exactly that and had peace there, including with that same Mufti with whom, liHavdil, Rav Yosef Chaim had “cordial” relations. Once the Zionists invaded and flagrantly violated everything they could, they turned the entire region and beyond into a nightmare for Jews. The contrast could not be any more stark, yet you and others simply refuse to see it.
To clarify one point, though, of course nothing I wrote and nothing in the world absolves the Nazis from the mass genocide they committed against Jews. Period.
As to your last point, Zionism is, in both its own conception and its actual execution, the intentional opposite of Jew; so, I’m not sure why anyone would make that replacement.
SQUARE_ROOT has still not apologized for falsely libeling Jews as Hamas and Iran members or whatever was the exact nonsense then, so this nonsense, too, will be ignored.
ZSK> suggesting that if Jews had simply remained “quiet” and “submissive”, their enemies would have treated them with kindness.
your opponent (or whomever he learnt from) are in a difficult psychological situation: the assumption that his group theories were fully, and the only ones, correct does not fit the facts that people who followed those theories were persecuted (unless they faced reality and were able to save themselves at the last moment), and those who were opposite them – somehow had some successes. So, he needs to redefine what “success” is and who to blame – and he will continue doing so. I think you, and everyone else, made their point. Let’s talk about something else interesting!
anon1m0us, thanks for looking up Chofetz Chaim on tinokos hanishba.
@qwerty613:
You don’t have to imagine. Hitler YM”S himself wrote about how astonished he was at how much the Zionists hated Judaism and its sages going all the way back, like the Rambam and all else.
@anon1m0us:
The end of your post, bashing a gadol biYisrael as you did, lost you the “right” to a response other than do teshuva for that grave sin.somejew > @always_ask_questions
> I don’t know what you might mean by “secular”. I would rather this conversation be Torah-centric (sorry zionists)IDK, some (other?) jew used this word “secular” in his accusations, I was exactly trying to get some clarity! Thanks for switching now to “Torah centric” approach!
in which case the baseline of who is called עמיתך is:
1) michalel shabbos b’farhesia
2) generally keeps common mitzvos (kosher, mezuzah, tahars mishpuche, tzniyos, mechitza, etc)
3) believes in the 13 principals of faithChofetz Chaim and I 🙂 hold by captured tinokos. This is pretty clear in cases, say, Reform Jews in US and non-religious Jews who came out of Russia: they are not familiar with basic Torah concepts and they also might think that they are familiar with them.
Israeli Jews are a harder case, as one might think that by the virtue of proximity and lashon, they are not ignorami. But culture is still culture: they live among “their people”, their knowledge of religion is superficial, in part acquired by observing Yidden in unfamiliar kaftans marching by and paying no attention to them. Also, there are multiple sub-cultures out there. You seem to be focused on “Zionists”, but as Riva and others told you – there are no real anti-religious Zionists left out there – there are anti-religious secularists; there are partially religious pro-medinah Jews who are not attached to any anti-religious ideologies; there are religious Zionists with whom we don’t have to always agree, but who are doing fine on your 1-2-3 list.
To sum it up, I don’t think it is easy to characterize everyone, but my estimate is that number of non-amitecha is pretty small, B’H.
HaKatan> Once the Zionists invaded and flagrantly violated everything they could, they turned the entire region and beyond into a nightmare for Jews.
I might have missed your answer to this question: the entire region, much larger than EY, was a nightmare for most groups after WW2, comparing with North America and Europe (west of USSR). Is this Zionist fault they all got mad? If not, then would you claim that charedim would continue living in peace in the middle of Nassers/Assads/Saddams/Ayatollahs/ISIS/PLO/Huthis? (and in the numbers we have now).
So it seems
MicroP:
No, it is in fact you who needs to learn some Torah, which is not limited to three Charedi Rabbonim from the 1900s. Without getting into yet another tired discussion of the Three Oaths and all the related topics, there is an opposing view, one held by giants of Halakha and Machshava, that you and your compadres refuse to acknowledge in the slightest because of politics. We’re not going there, but the fact that you’ve reduced the vast, multi-faceted corpus of Jewish tradition to a single, 20th-century anti-statist polemic proves your “education” is sorely lacking. To act as if the entirety of the Torah’s relationship with EY begins and ends with Satmar-aligned ideology is ignorant and a theological embarrassment.
You’re trying to lecture me on “learning history” while simultaneously huddling inside a fantasy world built entirely out of revisionist nostalgia. You claim I’m “projecting my imagination”, yet your entire premise relies on a romanticized, fictional version of the pre-1948 Middle East.
Your insistence that Jews lived in “peace” before the “Zionist invasion” is a textbook Cherry-Picking Fallacy. You’ve conveniently scrubbed the 1834 Safed plunder, the 1517 Hebron attacks, and some 1300 years of humiliating Dhimmi status from your memory. “Peace” is a bold word for a system where Jews were forbidden from building houses higher than Muslims, forbidden from riding horses, and required to pay a “protection” tax (more like mafia-esque extortion on a massive scale) just to keep their heads. In some cases, Jews literally had to wear yellow clothing (doesthat ring a bell?). If your definition of “peace” is “quietly accepting institutionalized degradation”, then your dictionary is as broken as your logic.
You argue that because the region became a “nightmare” after Zionism, Zionism is the sole cause. This is the Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc fallacy at its finest. It ignores the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the rise of Pan-Arab nationalism, and global geopolitical shifts that had nothing to do with Jews. To blame the “nightmare” entirely on Jews wanting self-determination rather than on the violent rejection of that presence by others is victim-blaming yet again.
Again the Mufti. You have no shame. “Cordial” didn’t save the lives of those in Chevron or in the Arab Riots; it just gave the Mufti a polite way to scope out the targets. The “lay low” strategy is easy to preach when you’re alive to talk about it. It’s a strategy that failed in the Crusades, failed in the Inquisition, and failed in the Pogroms. Using the temporary, fragile quiet of one specific era as a universal rule for Jewish survival is not “Torah wisdom”; it’s a dangerous gamble with other people’s lives.
Finally, let’s address your absurd claim that Zionism is the “opposite of Jew”. This is a No True Scotsman fallacy. You don’t get to move the goalposts of an entire identity just because you’ve decided your specific brand of anti-statist theology is the only one that counts. Unless you’ve recently been promoted to the Almighty Himself, you don’t get to dictate who is “Jewish” and who is a “sinner”. You don’t get to arrogantly try to gatekeeping a 3,000-year-old identity to fit your narrow, 19th-century anti-Zionist polemic.
Re Nazism and Nazis. You deliberately avoided my point, again.
Spend less time telling others to “learn history” and more time reading the parts of history that don’t fit your echo chamber.
@AAQ: I would love for all of these threads to die off. I wish the @mods would kill them all off. I only respond to the three anti-Zionists because someone needs to present the other side and directly challenge them.
I’m far more interested in issues surrounding Halachic authority, what Halachic authorities actually address (and what has not been addressed), and the major theological problems with Chassidus. Whether Zionism is heresy or not or attitudes toward the State and IDF – as far as I’m concerned, it’s very simple: Secularist Zionism is, Religious Zionism isn’t. The State exists, deal with it – ideally recognizing what HKB”H has given us (by saying the prayers for the State and IDF per halacha). Serve in the army or civil service. That’s it.
To directly respond to the original post one final time: No, “Settlers” are not Rodfim, and the RZ establishment has always been quick about distancing itself from bad behavior, calling out bad behavior (we actually throw our own Rabbonim in jail when they commit crimes deserving such). RZ has also always admitted that the “hilltop youth” – and those who act like them – have always been a problem and that they are extremely difficult to reel in – especially since many went through the Gaza expulsion (that’s exactly what it was). The incident in question is far more complicated and involved some Arab praying on the side of the road – a bad location to pray in, especially on a rug (the driver literally didn’t see him), as well as a driver/soldier driving through a hostile situation – one that could have ended with yet another lynch mob, and an area that has strategic importance to protecting Yerushalayim from Arabs.
Riva, these are two discussions. The general Jewish population does not have any designated term for those who happen to live on the other side of the arbitrary “green line”. Normal people don’t refer to them as “settlers”. That term is reserved for outposts within otherwise arab neighborhoods.
It carries a certain danger and those who live there do so, very often, as an idealistic value. This is the discussion here.
To Hakatan
Please provide the source for Hitler yms having made such a statement.
@always_ask_questions
a tinok shenishbu – like every jew – is not עמיתך if he breaks any of the three re-lines I mentioned as that is the definitional Torah standard of עמיתךthe Chofetz Chaim claimed above by @anon1m0us is fraudulent.
@zsk
the consistent adamant rejection of zionism as kefira by Gedolim like Chofetz Chaim, Brisker Rav, and the Chazon Ish (as well as, of course, Rebbes of Lubavitch, Belz, Toldos Aharon, Satmar, etc) is specifically and explicitly a complaint against RELIGIOUS ZONISM.Yes HaLeiVi, I understand what you mean; however, having lived over the Green line for over 33 years, my family and I have suffered a lot of discrimination and cruelty at the hands of Jews because we live “over the line.” My husband, a medical doctor trained at the best programs, was even denied employment because of where we live! The news outlets all over the world and Israel with the exception of the very right-wing ones like Arutz 7, still refer to those of us living over the Green line as “settlers/right-wing extremists,” no matter that we live in a city of 80,000 Jews in a beautiful apartment. The fact is that we live next to an Arab area, Hussan, and have been targeted by them at times with rock throwing. It’s not as dangerous as other areas, but there is a certain amount of danger. Hence, the “miseret nefesh” factor. Those who live in an outpost, yes, very idealistic people believe that we need to hold onto our land by living on it. They like to set up these outposts in response to Arab terrorists who have murdered Jews in the area. Yet, I find that it would be a more productive discussion to focus on the Jewish people living outside Israel joining us in Israel, with 8 million Jews already here waiting for the rest of world Jewry to come home!
ZSK:
My advice in my previous posts remains.
No, there is zero Torah authority that claims the three oaths are not in force. Zero.Regarding: “Your insistence that Jews lived in “peace” before the “Zionist invasion” is a textbook Cherry-Picking Fallacy. You’ve conveniently scrubbed the 1834 Safed plunder, the 1517 Hebron attacks, and some 1300 years of humiliating Dhimmi status from your memory. ”
No, it is reality. You’ve listed three incidents from the hundreds of years prior the Zionist invasion, implying that the Zionists’ invasion did not severely reduce the peace the Jews enjoyed there. SMH.
And the “rise of Pan-Arabism” would have been irrelevant to Jews had the Zionists not invaded.
And it is not I that have no shame but you that refuse to see reality. The Chevron Massacre occurred because of Zionism. Period. No, obviously a “cordial” relationship will not prevent savages from rioting when godless Zionists proclaim that the Kosel is theirs (while under British administration) and the savages believed that their Al Aqsa mosque was under threat thanks to those godless Zionists (and Rabbi Kook backing them up, claiming to the Mufti that he cannot distinguish between religious feelings and nationalist feelings, as it happens).
And Zionism is indeed the opposite of Judaism. You can read the current dear leader’s mentor’s words on that, stating that the New Hebrew will be the opposite of a Jew. Looking at it “on the ground”, Jews are Baishanim Rachmanim and gomlei chasadim. The news stories each day reveals the depths of the opposite that are the Zionists, as in their horrific assaults against (chareidi) Jews there.
Again, my advice in my prior post remains.
ZSK> Secularist Zionism is, Religious Zionism isn’t. The State exists, deal with it – ideally recognizing what HKB”H has given us (by saying the prayers for the State and IDF per halacha
to be fair, specific R Kook’s prayer is not without a controversy. Maybe charedim could settle on a pareve version at the level of Der emperor Franz-Jozef.
As it is, I feel uncomfortable when there are tehilim after davening in black-hat shuls. Some ended, some continued after recent hostilities stopped. Are they saying it for the chayalim, or are they saying it for draft evaders? Even as my Rav paskened that “there is nothing wrong saying tehilim with other Yidden”, I am not sure what to do. As a comparison, karbonos are invalidated by a wrong machshovah.
On a related note, some charedim positions are for public consumption but not necessarily held universally (as we see from some posters here). When I explained my kids, who are in a moderate-charedi school, that “EY” is sometimes used to avoid saying “medinah”, like in “I am traveling to EY”, they were first appalled at the thought and denied that this is possible, then admitted, then started noticing that some of their teachers are saying stam “Israel” in the class, but not when in public.
somejew> a tinok shenishbu – like every jew – is not עמיתך if he breaks any of the three re-lines I mentioned as that is the definitional Torah standard of עמיתך
Could you please consult your rov, and relate to us what he said. Usual definition of the tinok is the person who does not know anything. He is raised by Russian communists or Indian gurus. He does not know what shabbos is. He is shogeg. In fact, there is a discussion whether he later on needs to bring karbonos for things he did by mistake, without knowing.
ZSK> the fact that you’ve reduced the vast, multi-faceted corpus of Jewish tradition to a single, 20th-century anti-statist polemic
what I found interesting in this discussion that R Elchonon was a close student of Chofetz Chaim and they were writing in the same time period. So, what explains such contrast between REW loud position and Ch.Ch. not taking the stand? Did they ever discuss this between each other?
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