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@zsk
what is the difference between “LiHalacha” and when the Meiri says “don’t do it”?I don’t think you understand that “LiHalacha” means and I don’t think you understand why (or even know that) the Satmar Rebbe also says the shevios are not “LiHalacha” in Vayoel Moshe.
@qwerty613
I criticized the bad things common in MO today. You responded that there are other jews who do bad things. And you said that I should be careful about calling out such bad things.to quote exactly what you wrote:
And there are Chassidim who casually … so let’s be careful about attacking other groups of Jews.
</bockquote>
I don’t understand why the failings of any other Jews should demand I “be careful”. Careful of what? Also calling out their bad behavior?[BTW, I disagree with your public tochacha of “chassidim” as you wrote it, which is why i replaced the motei shem ru with ellipsis. Those unnamed “chassidim” could be anyone, and you are painting the whole general population of “chassidim” with that brush. This could be valid criticism if the bad behavior was something endorsed widely by ANY of the many formal groups that claim the title “Chassidim”, but they certainly do not. Not only that, the sins you mentioned are not only NOT endorsed by any chassidic groups, they are already clearly and adamantly recognized as bad behavior and officially rejected by all those groups and sub-groups as well as all their theological leaders. Contrast this to the many groups and leaders that claim themselves MO who support and endorse the aforementioned sins and whose students practice that heresy in their names. ]
@johnnysmith
I support @Hakatan’s participation in CR. He tends to get to the core of a lot of issues, enlightens them with Torah true perspectives, and save many of us from the need to answer in his stead.This website is targeted for Jews who practice Judaism. If there weren’t so many messianic/reformists/zionists/etc trying to defend their nonsense, Hakatan (and others) wouldn’t need to counter it in this public space.
my first thoughts are simply read the Rambam himself, which is the original source of the chidish that there could be any type of mumar that is considered a “tinik shenishbu”, where he ends with “don’t kill them quickly”. [before this chidish, the phrase meant a baby actually captured by non-jews].
The Rambam also defines the terms “apikorus”, “min”, “mimar” explicitly in Yad, brings multiple haluchos in other parts of Yad thet leerage those definitions, such as ribis and rotzeach, etc. He also write at length about kefira in mishnayos perek Kol.
At no point does he mention that there is some sort of excpetion for tinok shenishbu as mutually exclusive (as mentioned, of course there are tinukos shenishbu that are NOT mumarim). Nor does the Rambam provide any rational that would support such a binary.
However, in an effort to find your question addressed more directly, I offer the statements of the Brisker Rav who said “Nebach an apikorus is still and apikorus”. Even more direct, it the mamar on eminah from Rav Elchonon Wasserman’s kovetz maamarim (I think the very first mamar in the current common print). But, I don’t have it in front of me to quote exactly.
Yet to really get to the bottom of the question, a question really about todays non-jewish jewish, I would offer a look at modern day poskim and how they handle quesitons about their status l’halucheh.
Here is from shevet halevi, chelek 1, siman 20. He does not entertain any such consdieration that a common michalel shabbos today is not a imar
Here is the transcription and translation, automated (so please check for mistakes).
====================================
סימן ככבוד ידידנו המפואר ומופלג בתורה ויראה
טהורה הרב ר’ צבי ליבוביץ שליט”א,
שו”ב כפר חיים.אחדשכ”ט וש”ת.
שאלת חכם חצי תשובה לנכון קבלתי והאותיות
מחכימות היות כי במקומו אנשים איזה [אולי: אלו]
מהמתפללים הם מחללי שבת ואוכלי נו”ט ר”ל, וזהו
לעשות ביום חג הפסח הבעל”ט וכי’ צריך לברר
בנ”ד אם להתפלל ביחידות כיון דתפלה בציבור רק
דרבנן, וגם חברת האנשים האלה מבטלים
משמחת יו”ט וגורמים בלבול תפלה, וכבר כל יקר
ראתה עינו תשובת רבותינו האחרונים ובפרט דברי
הרדב”ז ח”ד סי’ אלף קפ”ז (תקפז) ודברי מהר”ם שיק או”ח
סי’ ע”א, ומיוסד על יסוד דברי הפרי מגדים סימן
נ”ה דמותר להכעיס או לחלל שבתות אסור לצרף,
ועיין עוד סימן קכ”ח ומ”ב ס”ק קנ”ד, והין לו
להאריך בפשוט, דאסור להתפלל בקהל כזה כיון
דבעו”ה אינם בגדר בני ישראל בדיני מצות וצירוף
מנין.
ואם אמנם הגאון בנין ציון ח”ב סי’ כ”ג רצה
להקל במחללי שבת דזמנינו כיון דהולכים
לבית הכנסת ומתפללים וגם מקדשים קדוש היום,
דלא טעם מחלל שבת כגוי מפני שכופר
בבריאה וסבורא הא מודה ע”י קידוש ותפלה יע”ש,
ויותר מה מצאתי בתשו’ רבנו הרמ”ע בסוף אגרת
השמד שכתב וז”ל: וג”כ אינו ראוי להרחיק מחללי
שבתות ולמאוס אותם אלא לקרבם ומרחם לעשות
המצוות וכבר פי’ רבותינו ז”ל שהפושע אם פשע
ברצונו כשיבוא לבית הכנסת להתפלל מקבלים אותו
ואין נוהגין בו מנהג ביזיון וסמכו על זה מדברי
שלמה ע”ה לא יבוזו לגנב כי יגנוב למלא נפשו כי
ירעב, אל יבוזו לפושעי ישראל שהם בחי’ נסתר
לגנוב מצוות, ע”כ. ואמנם כ”ז אינו מעלה ארוכה
למכה דידן במקום שרוב הקהל הם פורקים ומחללי
שבת, פשיטא דאסור להיות בחברתם כיון דלהםהתלי’ בכל הענינים וגם איכא חשש דימשך
אחריהם ובפרט הבנים הקטנים הרכים לפניהם
קהל כזה. וגם דברי הבנין ציון הנ”ל נראים חדשים
ביותר ואיכה מקום לצרפם לענין נגיעת יין של
מחללי שבת בזמן הזה, אבל חלילה להיות אחד עם
קהל כזה. וכן מדברי הרמב”ם אינו ראיה דשם
מדובר ג”כ בנידון שיראי ה’ ידם על העליונה והם
רוצים לקרב גם אלו שבעוונותיהם פירשו מעדת ה’.
אבל לא כן המצב עכשיו בעו”ה שרבו הפורצים
ויראי ה’ אינם מתקבלים עליהם, לכן טוב שיפרוש
מהם ומהמונם. עיי’ ח”ס סי’ קס”ה-חואמנם גם זה לא ניחא לי לקודש”ה שיסגר עצמו
ובניו בחג הק’ הבעל”ט להתפלל ביחידות
והנה הקטן לא יראה מעשי ה’ ולא ישמעו תפלה
בצבור ולא קריאת התורה ולא כל מנהגים הקדושים
והמתוקים שנהגו מימות עולם, ע”כ יקיים דברי
הרמב”ם ויהפך לו מקום אחר, כמש”כ פ”ו מהלכות
דעות דצריך לצאת אפילו למדינה אחרת ואז טוב לו
בגוף ובנפש.English Translation
Siman Chaf (20)
To the honor of our glorious friend, distinguished in Torah and pure fear of Heaven, the Rav, R’ Tzvi Leibowitz Shlita [May he live for good long days, Amen],
Shochet u’Bodek of Kfar Chais.I extend greetings of life and peace.
“The question of a wise man is half the answer” – I have received [your letter] duly, and the letters are enlightening. Since in his place there are certain individuals among the congregants who are Mechallelei Shabbos and eaters of Neveilos u’Treifos R”L, and this concerns what to do on the upcoming holiday of Pesach HaBa Aleinu L’Tova. And thus, it is necessary to clarify in Nidon Didan [our case at hand] whether to pray B’yechidus [privately], since Tefilah B’Tzibbur is only D’Rabbanan, and also the company of these people cancels the Simchas Yom Tov and causes Bilbul Tefilah.And indeed, every precious eye has already seen the responsa of our Later Rabbis (Acharonim), specifically the words of the Radvaz, Part 4, Siman 1187 (587), and the words of Maharam Schick, Orach Chaim, Siman 71. This is founded upon the principle of the Pri Megadim, Siman 55, that one who transgresses casually (l’hach’is) or desecrates Shabbosos is forbidden to be included [in a Minyan]. See also Siman 128 and the Mishnah Berurah subsection 154. There is no need to elaborate on the obvious, that it is forbidden to pray in such a congregation, since Ba’avonosaynu HaRabbim they are not within the category of Bnei Yisrael regarding the laws of Mitzvos and inclusion in a Minyan.
And even though the Gaon, author of Binyan Tzion, Part 2, Siman 23, wished to be lenient regarding the Mechallelei Shabbos of our times—since they go to the Beis HaKnesses and pray and also recite Kiddush on the Holy Day, for the reason a Mechallel Shabbos is like a gentile is because he denies Creation, whereas this one admits to it through Kiddush and Tefilah, see there—and further what I found in the Responsa of our master, the Rama [Rabbi Menachem Azariah of Fano] at the end of Iggeret HaShmad, who wrote as follows: “And also it is not fitting to distance Mechallelei Shabbosos and to loathe them, but rather to draw them close and have mercy to perform the Mitzvos. And our Rabbis of blessed memory have already explained that a transgressor, if he transgressed willfully, when he comes to the Beis HaKnesses to pray, we accept him and do not treat him with contempt. They relied in this on the words of Shlomo A”H: ‘Men do not despise a thief, if he steals to satisfy his soul when he is hungry’ (Proverbs 6:30); do not despise the transgressors of Israel, for they are in the aspect of a hidden one stealing Mitzvos,” until here.
However, all this is not a healing remedy for our wound in a place where the majority of the congregation are those who cast off the yoke [of Heaven] and are Mechallelei Shabbos. It is obvious that it is forbidden to be in their company, since to them belongs the influence/dependence in all matters, and there is also a concern that he will be drawn after them, specifically the small, tender sons [who are] before such a congregation. Furthermore, the words of the aforementioned Binyan Tzion seem very novel (Chidushim), and how is there room to combine them [rely on them] regarding the matter of Negias Yayin of Mechallelei Shabbos in this time? But Chalila to be ‘one’ with such a congregation.
So too, from the words of the Rambam there is no proof, for there it speaks also in a case where the God-fearing have the upper hand, and they wish to draw close those who, through their sins, have separated from the congregation of Hashem. But such is not the situation now, Ba’avonosaynu HaRabbim, where the lawless (Portzim) have multiplied and the God-fearing are not accepted by them; therefore, it is good that he separate from them and their multitudes. See Chatam Sofer, Siman 165-168.
However, this too is not pleasing to me for the sake of the Kidsha Brich Hi, that he should shut himself and his sons away on the upcoming Holy Holiday to pray B’yechidus. And behold, the little one [child] will not see the works of Hashem, and they will not hear prayer B’Tzibbur, nor Krias HaTorah, nor all the holy and sweet customs that have been practiced since days of old. Therefore, he should fulfill the words of the Rambam and find himself another place, as he wrote in Chapter 6 of Hilchos De’ot, that one must leave even to another country, and then it will be good for him in body and soul.
======================
@qwerty613
I was attacking the crooked part of a crooked ideology. that can (and should) be done for any group that is promoting a mistake, either intentionally or otherwise.I don’t follow your pseudo-logic of “so let’s be”, what does the first half of that statement have to do with the later half?
> “Ploni is wrong”
> “But Almony is also wrong, so be careful who you call wrong”
HUH ??? this doesn’t make sense to me.If you see someone making a mistake publicly, call it out.
@yankel-berel
you said “I was reading somejew’s previous post claiming that a mumar does not get rewarded…”
please point to the specific comment (every comment has a unique ID number in the top right you can use as reference) in question and please explain what you think is wrong about it. I will either clarify or admit my mistake, iy”H@always_ask_questions
most tinokos shenishbu today are mumarim.@yankel-berel
yes. “schar v’onesh” is one of the 13 ikarim. i’m not sure what alternative you were considering.@qwerty613
i don’t understand what you mean by “valid form of Yiddishkeit”. Nor do I understand why you frame anything I said as me being “bothered”.
A tinok shenishbu is a specific type of “o’nes” that is a result of one being misled by their parents and (perhaps) their teachers.Anyone whose sins are a direct result of being taught the wrong thing can claim this “o’nes” insomuch as they have not been able to learn the correct way. The Rambam says it beautifully, “even if they have seen kosher Jews and continue in their false ways… don’t kill them too quickly.”
For some people this “o’nes” is regarding specific aveiras, while still generally keeping shabbos, kosher, taharos mishpuche, etc. and they believe the 13 ikarim. So, they are still usually part of klal yisroel.
For other people, they have this “o’nes” and they do things like chilil shabbos or don’t believe that one of the 13 ikarim and remove themselves from “klal yisroel”.
Regarding the “Modern Orthodox” label (which is not a formal organization or designation), there are some that claim that title and only do some aveiras like casually using a smartphone or casually talking to women, but otherwise keep halucheh. And there are others who claim the “MO” title and doubt (chas v’shuem) the Divinity of the Talmud or the Chimash or doubt (chas v’shulem) techiyas hameisim or moshiach, etc.
The only thing “valid” is Torah. There are no “forms” beyond the teachers that are passing down Torah from Sinai and into our generation. If it’s indeed “Torah” it is valid. If it is not “Torah” it is not valid.
@yankel-berel
the mishna in sanhedren, “kol yisroel yesh l’hem olam ha bu” list many of those who lose olam habu (which is the main reward). The Rambam’s peirish on that mishna is where he list what became known as the “13 ikarim” and the rambam writes how a person doubitng them loses their olam habu.However, if these reshoyim did any mitzveh, they would still get rewarded in olam hazeh (as per the rule of schar v’onesh, one of the 13 ikarim). This perhaps makes an easy context to understand the many statements in chazal and late poskim about the damage done when a mumar does a mitzvah that it feeds and strengthens, cha v’shulem, the sitra achra.
(this is regarding actual mitzvos, not the disgrace of profaning mitzvos that some do by putting teffilin on those who don’t believe in Hashem or Torah, turning yiddishkeit into a secular ethnic culture of “jew-ish”. there is no “mitzvah” if one does not believe they were commanded. that being said, we jews (not you @yankel-berel, as you’ve already defended and endorsed other religious) are not in the business of telling anyone – mumar or not – to stop doing any mitzvos, because we cannot know what is in a person heart. so we must be machmir on both sides despite the chazuke that they are kofer)
a michalel shabbos is worse than a nazi
I can’t speak for @flamingOTD specifically, but the claim that ANYONE is Jewish is specifically a religious claim of the Jewish religion, a claim specifically that such a person is obligated to keep the Torah. This obligation cannot be canceled and its reward and punishment will be delivered according to however much the Jew is on-the-derech, keeping the Torah.
I agree that a person who stupidly claims the Torah is NOT a real covenant with The Creator – reform, secular, religion zionist, or whatever – can not call himself Jewish with any integrity because those words indeed mean he believes he is bound by the Divine Torah. However, he may still indeed be Jewish (obligated) despite not being part of klal yisroel (rewarded).
@qwerty613
I didn’t in any way say or intend an implication that chabad is worthless. there is certainly much good in the classic chabad teachings. so too there seem to be many sincere yiden that are in chabad, getting influence from both the good and the bad. Perhaps they are tinokes shenishbu like the “modern orthodox”.really “There are no questions about Chabad’s Mitzvah performance. That’s impeccable.”???
How many Gedolim, litvish and chassidish, cried rivers because of their brazen tefillin campaigns that have caused so much destruction? How much has been written about the fallacy of “kiriv”, encouraging mimarim to defile holy mitzvos by doing the “lo lishma” with no intent to do them lishma? how many balei tshiva have been led astray with faux-Chabad’s faux teachings of “ahavas hareshoyim” and “Hashem understands” if you can’t do mitzvos, and they are “just good things to do” anyway, chas v’shulem!
really? no questions?
While you are correct that the halacha would indeed mandate that Jews rise up and violently fight the Zionists (like any other masis umadiach, kofer, michalel shabos, etc), we have unfortunately lost the masora of how to be “moredim”, as our Gedolim have taught us that we must wait for Moshiach to fight these wars against Hashem when the zionists and their supporters will be destroyed.
The only remaining Jewish “self defense” is to continue being mocheh these zionist rashoyim and strengthen the religious Jewish community to uproot all of their propaganda and heresy from our midst.
@qwerty613
i missed that question of yours. But, it’s easy to find in Mein Kamph where he calls out the zionist movement as the source of his disgust of jews. In the english translation by Ralph Manheim that is available freely online, it starts on page 56. I would quote it, but like I don’t quote Kook yimach shemo I don’t want to quote his partner Hitler yimach shemo – as Rav Elchonon Vasserman said in the name of the Chofetz Chaim: the zionists are amulek.I’ll have to correct you, even if you only meant it “tongue in cheek”. Even if a Gadol greater than Rav Zafrani would, chalila, take the heretical position of @simcha613, it would still not be Torah and that person would be a “zuken mamre”, i.e. a Gadol Hador who went OTD (like @simcha613 is now – probably a tinok shenishbu who is unfortunately trying to damage more Jews with his zionist religion).
@always_ask_questions
a tinok shenishbu – like every jew – is not עמיתך if he breaks any of the three re-lines I mentioned as that is the definitional Torah standard of עמיתךthe Chofetz Chaim claimed above by @anon1m0us is fraudulent.
@zsk
the consistent adamant rejection of zionism as kefira by Gedolim like Chofetz Chaim, Brisker Rav, and the Chazon Ish (as well as, of course, Rebbes of Lubavitch, Belz, Toldos Aharon, Satmar, etc) is specifically and explicitly a complaint against RELIGIOUS ZONISM.@anon1m0us
Your earlier claim against the Torah (Pikei d’R’ Nusen) that I mentioned was that it is “not halacha” (whatever you might mean by that), so I quoted its use in sefer Chofetz Chaim. So now you agree that it is “halacha”?Moving on, you seem to have invented quotes from both the seforim “Chofetz Chaim” and “Ahavas Chessed”. I certainly cannot find anything close to what you claim is written in them, and both those seforim are available on Hebrew Books.
As Hebrew Books is one of the few urls permitted in CR, please provide exact references to your fraudulent quotes by pointing to at least a specific page in those public sources.https://hebrewbooks.org/14233
https://hebrewbooks.org/15141
@always_ask_questions
I don’t know what you might mean by “secular”. I would rather this conversation be Torah-centric (sorry zionists) in which case the baseline of who is called עמיתך is:
1) michalel shabbos b’farhesia
2) generally keeps common mitzvos (kosher, mezuzah, tahars mishpuche, tzniyos, mechitza, etc)
3) believes in the 13 principals of faithBreaking ANY one of the above three “red lines” would remove a jewish person from עמיתך, and this includes a tinok shenishba.
If someone does not keep shabbos AND does not keep kosher AND does not believe the Talmud is binding Divine law, would you at least agree that such a person is not עמיתך?
@riva
i can’t begin to understand why you make fun of the words of the Rambam. The rest of what you wrote is equally nonsensical.
@anon1m0us
nothing I wrote was novel. they are all points made clearly and regularly by both contemporary and classic gadolim.
I don’t know what you mean to say in your criticism, as I referenced the sefer Chofetz Chaim which, in line with a long line of gadolim before him, brings my point l’halucheh.
The gemara “af al pi” means (over there) that one single aveira (the hava amina of the gemara) would sever a Jew from being Jewish, and the gemara says that is not the case. The way it is uses in poskim, like in baal ha tanya’s shulchan aruch, is that even a kofer is still obligated in the mitzvos despite not being part of klal yisroel.
see this usage from shulcha aruch harav, hilchos ribis:עו מומר שיצא מן הכלל דינו כנכרי לענין רבית שמותר להלוותו ברבית
שכיון שעובד ע”ז מין הוא ומורידין אותו למיתה וכיון שגופו מופקר ומותר
לאבדו כ”ש ממונו ומותר לאבדו וה”ה ליטלו לעצמו באיזו תחבולה שאפשר
ואין לחוש שמא יצא ממנו זרע טוב כיון שנטמע בין הנכרים . וי”א שכל
שאינו אדוק בע”ז כגון כומר לע”ז אינו מין ואין מורידין גופו וה”ה שממונו
אינו מופקר וטוב לחוש לדבריהם אם אפשר להשמט ממנו שלא להלוותו :
עז אבל ללוות ממנו ברבית אסור לד”ה משום ולפני עור כו’ ומשום לא תשיך
לאחיך שאף שהמומר אינו נחשב אח אצלינו אנו נחשבים אחים אצלו
ומוזהר שלא ליקח ממנו נשך שאע”פ שחטא ישראל הוא והנותן לו נשך עובר
בבל תשיך שהיא אזהרה ללוה שלא לגרום למלוה לישוך כל שהמלוה
מוזהר עליוhere is an AI translation for am harutzim:
Seif 76
A Mumar (apostate) who has completely departed from the collective [of the Jewish people] has the status of a Gentile regarding Ribbis, such that it is permitted to lend to him with interest. Since he worships Avodah Zarah (idolatry), he is considered a Min (heretic) and [the law is that] we cast him down to death (moridin oso). Since his body is declared ownerless (hefker) and it is permitted to destroy him, how much more so is his money [ownerless] and permitted to be destroyed; and the same applies to seizing it for oneself by any stratagem possible.
One need not be concerned that perhaps “good seed” (righteous offspring) will issue from him, since he has intermingled (nitma) among the Gentiles.
However, there are those who say (Yeish Omrim) that as long as he is not devout (aduk) in Avodah Zarah—for example, a priest of Avodah Zarah—he is not considered a Min and we do not cast down his body; consequently, his money is not deemed hefker. It is proper to be concerned for their words, if it is possible to evade him so as not to lend to him.
Seif 77
However, to borrow from him with interest is forbidden according to all opinions, due to Lifnei Iver (“Do not place a stumbling block…”) and due to “Lo Sashich L’Achicha” (“You shall not cause your brother to take interest” – Deut 23:20). For even though the Mumar is not considered a “brother” to us, we are considered “brothers” to him, and he is warned not to take neshech (interest)—for even though an Israelite has sinned, he remains an Israelite.
The one giving him the neshech violates “Lo Sashich”, which is a warning to the borrower not to cause the lender to “bite” (take interest), [a prohibition applicable] as long as the lender is subject to the warning.you asked me about a “next part” fo the rambam, but I quoted the end of that sugya. you seem to be refereing to a preceding statement. reveiw and get back to me and try to make a coherent point.
@always_ask_questions
the place where the chofetz chaim quotes that prikei d’r’nusen is in
chofetz chaim. section 8. halach 5:ה. וכל זה האיסור של לשון הרע הוא דוקא על איש שעל פי דין תורה הוא עדיין בכלל “עמיתך”, דהיינו עם שאיתך בתורה ובמצות. אבל אותן האנשים שמכירם שיש בהם אפיקורסות, מצוה לגנותם ולבזותם, בין בפניהם ובין שלא בפניהם, בכל מה שהוא רואה עליהם או שומע עליהם. דכתיב: “לא תונו איש את עמיתו” ולא “תלך רכיל בעמיך”, והם אינם בכלל זה, שאינם עושים מעשה עמך. ונאמר: “משנאיך ה’ אשנא ובתקוממיך אתקוטט” וכו’.
ואפיקורוס נקרא הכופר בתורה ובנבואה מישראל, בין בתורה שבכתב ובין בתורה שבעל פה, ואפילו הוא אומר: כל התורה מן השמים, חוץ מפסוק אחד או קל וחומר אחד או גזירה שוה אחת או דקדוק אחד – גם הוא בכלל זה.here is an AI translation for am harutzim:
This entire prohibition regarding Lashon Hara applies specifically to an individual who, according to Torah law, is still categorized as “your colleague” (amitecha)—meaning, a people who are with you in Torah and Mitzvos.
However, regarding those individuals whom one knows to possess Apikorsus (heresy), it is a Mitzvah to denigrate them and shame them, whether in their presence or not, regarding anything one sees or hears about them. For it is written: “Do not aggrieve, each man his colleague” (Leviticus 25:17) and “Do not go as a talebearer among your people” (Leviticus 19:16)—and these [heretics] are not included in this category, for they do not perform “the deeds of your people” (ma’aseh amcha). Furthermore, it is stated: “Those who hate You, Hashem, I shall hate, and with those who rise up against You, I shall contend,” etc. (Psalms 139:21).
An Apikores is defined as one who denies the Torah and prophecy from Israel, whether the Written Torah or the Oral Torah. Even if he states, “The entire Torah is from Heaven,” except for a single verse, or a single Kal Vachomer (a fortiori deduction), or a single Gezeirah Shavah (verbal analogy), or a single grammatical inference—he is also included in this category.@zsk
Exile is a Divine decree and Moshiach is the cure (this is one of the 13 principals of faith). Any false replacement for this Moshiach, i.e. any attempt to end the exile and take control of the destiny of the Jewish people that is not by means of the specific prophet that Hashem decrees as the redeemer, is a “moshiach sheker”, a “false messiah”.Unfortunately, the tempting “promise of riches” that false messiahs use is (for obvious reasons) always tied to a core rejection of Torah and Mitzvos either for oneself or for others (this is obvious because a movement that would demand real mass tshiva is the actual Torah prescription for bringing the real Moshaich).
for the notzrim, the false messiah was their idol who taught that Jews can’t possibly keep Torah so just follow him – don’t worry about eh Torah – and he (the fake messiah) will redeem them.
the zionists similarly taught that if you build a state and an army you can take control of your own destiny (no Torah required) and save yourselves from the exile (just send your children off to die in wars, not a big deal, just like all the non-jewish nations).
They are both equally evil moshiach sheker who provided excuses for Jews to not keep the complete Torah. (as i known, both the Notzrim Preists and the Religious Zionist Priests teach that some or even almost all the Torah should be kept, all except for the ones that interfere with their false messiah or otherwise too difficult. “all part of the process”, they claim.)
1. Yes, Hashem does everything, including the Holocaust and its partner the State of Israel.
2. We cannot know what is in a person’s heart, but we are obligated to publicly reject them if they act publicly like an evil person (like a michalel shabbos). This includes tinok shenishba (see Rambam’s statement “don’t kill them so quickly”).
3. Secular people cannot be part of klal yisroel and it is forbidden to love them. This is a straight chazal (Pirkei d’R’ Nusen) based of a pasuk tehilim and brought in sefer Chofetz Chaim.
4. Certainly your love of evildoers causes your hatred of kosher Jews (as chazal teach, see rashi on first pasukim of bechikosai), and your false religion of love is true sinas chinam that pushes aways moshiach.
@riva, please don’t hesitate to show this to one of your charedi rabbunim in beitar as I am sure they will correct you. If I am in the wrong, please get any Torah sources from them. Until then, please stop spreading heresy and stop joining those who are battling against Hashem and His Torah.I asked for sources. Where have you ever seen NK, many of whom live in EY, speak bad about EY? Please point to anything they have said or published and explain how their words are “speaking bad about Eretz Yisroel”.
@yankel-berel
In line with what many have said to you over and over: the situation in Eretz Yisroel is not pikiach nefesh. If it was pikiach nefesh, there would be a mass exodus of emigrants leaving the zionist borders right now. Additionally, there would be widespread campaigns in the Jewish world to raise funds to relocate those who don’t have their own means to escape the danger.The reality is that the Jews in Eretz Yisroel themselves don’t agree with your nonsense bogeyman of “pikiach nefesh”. The reality is that if any zionists currently running their evil empire decided to do tshiva and dismantle the state they have many options on how to make a safe transition for the jews and non-jews that reside currently under the zionist boot. That structured plan may or may not include most jews staying in EY or emigrating to other lands. However, all of those possibilities are better than one more jew dying because of today’s zionist wars
[I am also glossing over another absurd implication of your nonsense, that pikiach nefesh isn’t applicable when there is an obligation of y’harog v’al tavor. but, @yankel-berel, I know already that you are kofer in at least that part of Torah because you’ve chosen another religion called “zionism”]
ERROR: In my above comment, I mistakenly wrote ” Is Eretz Yisroel not the place the Rambam says does NOT” when is should have been “Ramban”, making the correct phrase: ” Is Eretz Yisroel not the place the Ramban says does NOT”.
I apologize for the error.
@Hakatan gave an honest and serious answer. what else do you want?
As far as I have ever seen, all they do is express mainstream Torah teachings. If you have a problem with the Torah (like most religious zionists do), that’s a YOU problem. If you have heard NK communicate anything that is not Torah, please tell me know what it is (of course, with context and sources).
I’ve seen an interview where an NK spokesman was asked a question similar to yours: “who should replace the zionist government. hamas?” His answer was simple: (paraphrased by me) NK is not a political group. they don’t have a practical agenda, rather they are a religious group whose goal is to correct the public record on real Judaism and communicate the true ideology of the Torah.
While I have a hard time endorsing some of their practical tactics to communicate this message, I do relate very much to this distinction as outlined above. One of the core heresies of zionism is the idea that we Jews must take our destiny into our own hands. This is what they coin “self-determination”, which is the exact opposite of the Torah belief in Hashguche Prutis for every (kosher) Jew and all of klal yisroel as a whole.
The question of “well, what’s your SOLUTION then”, is exactly zionism at its core.
We Jews are allowed to (and must!) call out bad and reject bad behavior regardless of if we know how to solve the problem.
@riva
what a strange reaction.Conquering Eretz Yisroel
1) there’s is not a positive mitzvah to conquer EY (not sure what you mean with the English word “settle”) in effect RIGHT NOW as we are in gulis. This is why the Rambam doesn’t include it in the 613 and why the Ramban explains his rational to include it in the 613 as despite that it is not currently in effect.2) even if there would be such a mitzvah of conquering EY, that “conquering” means conquering it to be obedient to the Torah and uprooting all false idolatries from the land, something you and zionists like you, certainly are NOT doing.
Danger
While I can’t speak for @HaKatan , the words he wrote are that one should not risk their life for land as that is idolatry. He did not say that living on this side or that side of some green line is more or less dangerous, nor did he call out the Beitar community for such idolatry of sacrificing their life for earth. All he said is don’t put yourself in danger or send your children of to die for some fake-jewish government control. zionism is an evil death cult that thrives off of and causes mass jewish (chas v’shulem) death. Consider that zionism and their evil state would fully fall apart if antisemitism completely stopped (may both those things happen spedilly in our days).
There is a reason why some many on both sides of the political aisle easily consider that perhaps Oct 7 was planned by Netanyahu. Zionist have no problem sacrificing Jewish blood for their anti-semitic political dreams. Some sacrifice that blood on the altar of “the state” others on the altar of the “land”.
That is idolatry, something rampant on both sides of the zionist “green line”.Safety
Why would a G-d fearing Jew choose to move to Eretz Yisroel if he was afraid of antisemitism? Is Eretz Yisroel not the place the Rambam says does NOT have our Divine protection provided in gulis? Are the aveiras of the secular and zionists not rampant I the land that the Torah warns us will bring (chas v’shulem) wrath on the inhabitents with such neighbors? Is chilil shabbos (especially) in EY nothing to you? Beyond this, even those barren of Torah know that within the zionist borders is by far the MOST DANGEROUS place that Jews live today!Rashi on the very first pusik says that the land of Eretz Yisroel is G-ds to give to whom He choose. Did he not send us into gulis and take the land away? Are we jews supposed to now come like thieves (Rashi’s language) and claim it our inheritance when the Torah gives us no right (without Moshiach)?
I can promise you that the only one “winning” because of the State and their violent wars is the Sitra Achra and its zionist followers you call neighbors. Jews are certainly not winning because of their aveiros. Rather, we are winning as servants of Hashem and keepers of His Torah.
@square_root
looked at the article. none of those speakers were NK. None of the speakers posted spoke about hostages, hamas, or raising money. None of the signs mentioned anything about hostages, hamas, or razing any money.NK, afaik, has never raised money for any non-jewish groups.
NK has many resources online their website as well as other content. What have you ever seen by them that is against the Torah (please quote with honest context)?
@square_root
looked at the article. none of those speakers were NK. None of the speakers posted spoke about hostages, hamas, or raising money. None of the signs mentioned anything about hostages, hamas, or razing any money.NK, afaik, has never raised money for any non-jewish groups.
NK has many resources online their website as well as other content. What have you ever seen by them that is against the Torah (please quote with honest context)?
@square_root
looked at the article. none of those speakers were NK. None of the speakers posted spoke about hostages, hamas, or raising money. None of the signs mentioned anything about hostages, hamas, or razing any money.NK, afaik, has never raised money for any non-jewish groups.
NK has many resources online their website as well as other content. What have you ever seen by them that is against the Torah (please quote with honest context)?
a rather weak response from you, as per usual. It will be an easy rebuttal. enjoy:
I am not at all rejecting the physical nature of the geila we are davening for, I am just adamant that we cannot exclude the spiritual geila (which is also the main part).
@simcha613’s “question” is very much like asking someone who believes (as all Jews do) in techiyas hamaisim why he doesn’t go now to the bais hachayim and dig up the bodies of his loved ones? Since, the @simcha613 logic would go, he davens for techiyas hamaisim every day, shouldn’t he be excited to go and at least have the bodies recovered to play with? Isn’t this what you are davening for and now Hashem has given you the means to get it? Do you not truly love your dead relatives? I mean, I’m not saying that this is or isn’t (so goes this foolish heresy) the techiyas hamaisim promised, we’re not prophets, but should you be running anyway to go get those bodies recovered? (ad kan lushon stupido)I’ll let all the truth seekers enjoy the absurdity of the zionism and my above rejection of their false moshiach heretical catholic-like religion. If my response here is too difficult for your crooked antisemitic mind to grasp, go ahead and respond and express what bothers you, and I will happily dumb it down even more.
@simcha613
You seem to misunderstand the reality that I follow the Jewish religion. What I pray for three times a day has nothing to do with getting on a plane and going to the physical land called Eretz Yisroel. Once you figure that out that we aren’t talking about the same thing, you’ll understand why Jews don’t practice the same religion as Zionists.It’s the same as Catholics asking why we don’t just drink their god blood if we pray three times a day to be close to G-d. We aren’t talking about the same thing: You’re praying for some physical nonsense, but Jews are praying for something else.
@capcom63
Your story was a very nice story up until the end when you made the silly statement that had not been for the rabbi’s risk you would not be frim. There are many messengers from G-d and any Jewish person who wants to do tshiva has the ability to do it regardless of anybody else’s choices The only reason you’re where you are today is because of choices you made Certainly the people who have helped you will get their reward but had they chosen differently would not have affected your tshiva in the least.
I’m not taking a side in the question of if they’re doing the right or wrong thing But certainly every BT is frim because of their own choices not because of the choices of anybody else.@zsk
i didn’t reject any “rationalism” for “non-rationalism”, i rejected the whole distinction between the two as being academic and non-Torah because you are leveraging the speculative distinction to explicitly reject chazal and make space, chas v’shulem, between Rambam and Medrash. The core of my argument is that the Rambam aligns with chazal and with all the other gedolim who preceded him. That alignment may or may not be “rationalist” (a word I use hesitantly because I don’t care to understand what you meant by).I didn’t label rationalists at heretics, even though they might be (again, I don’t know what you mean by the word). I didn’t reject any of your challenges as heresy, I just explained that you are the one claiming the Rambam, chas v’shulem, a heretic.
Regarding the Ramban, you seem to be confused between the mitzvah of Yishiv EY and Kibish EY. Reread what I wrote.
The Ramban write that there is a mitzva of yishiv eretz yisroel for individuals, and this is clear not just in Ramban’s writings itself (such as where you references on Rambam’s Sefer Hamitzvos) but also across poskim who address the question. No one I ever encountered says anything like your peculiar “mitvos get activated” theory, you probably learned that from your “Jews for J” friends or “Jews for Z” friends (let me know if you are NOT friends of those groups If I have mistakenly accused you of being chas v’shulem a religious zionist)
I’ll restate my original point: There is no ambiguity in Torah about the requirement of a miraculous redemption, as this is explicit psikim that chazal maintain their literal reading. This is such a clear point in Torah that the Rambam includes it in the 13 ikarim and claims anyone who doesn’t believe in the miraculous redemption is no longer part of the am yisroel.
This is something even a nuvi can’t, chas v’shulem, uproot from the Torah.
That being said, @simcha613 claimed that he is not arguing with this point. So, at this point I’m not sure what exactly his issue is. It’s like he wants to argue about “hmm maybe” this is the geila, but of course “it’s not really the geila, no one says THAT straw man”. If it isn’t the geila (it’s certainly not), than this is not what we are davening for.
I understand that he is a stupid person because he has filled his head with zionism, so it is hard to make sense of a person so crooked. Yet it still baffles me how a person can be so adamant about nothing.
you can play the say gymnastics with nazi murderous in WWII:
“while their mass slaughter of jewish villages is unacceptable, they don’t (in theory) want to kill all the jews, they just can’t control their emotions watching the jews refusing to aid their country”Israel is not “our” country just because we choose to live in Eretz Yisroel.
Arabs (or whoever the zionists are murdering today) are not “our” enemy just because the zionists decided to provoke them to war.all of your nonsense has been addressed over and over.
if anyone feels afraid in palestine, they can leave.
Jews who believe in the Torah know that we gain nothing by doing aveiras and specifically we are not safer by having a zionist army
@zsk
It seems you are attempting to couch pure heresy in academic language. When you label the Rambam a ‘rationalist,’ what are you actually claiming? Does this label add anything to the Torah he taught or the Mekoros we possess?
You are essentially presented with two options. Either you acknowledge that the Rambam’s worldview aligned perfectly with Chazal, the Medrashim, and the Geonim who preceded him—in which case, your academic labels of ‘rationalist’ vs. ‘mystic’ are irrelevant. Or, you are implicitly claiming that the Rambam was a Koifer who rejected the Medrashim and Chazal. To any faithful Jew, it is obvious that the Rambam was not a heretic. The Rambam’s teachings on the fundamentals of Geulah and Moshiach align with the tradition he received that detail its miraculous nature. You cannot fabricate a machlokes between the Rambam and Chazal based on a modern academic theory. Unless the Rambam explicitly states, ‘I disagree with this Medrash’ or ‘we don’t learn the simple reading of this Midrash,’ we must assume he is in agreement with tradition.
The same logic applies to the Ramban. He certainly did not reject the Gemaras or Chazal. Regarding the Mitzvah of living in Eretz Yisrael and the concept of Kibbush Ha’aretz, there is a vast difference between the Ramban and—l’havdil—the actions of the State of Israel. According to the Ramban, Kibbush Ha’aretz means uprooting of all Avodah Zarah and ensuring the land is totally dominated by Torah observance. The secular State has never done even attempted this. Even if one were to distort the Ramban to claim an obligation to conquer the land now during Golus—which contradicts his other writings—the Zionist State fails to meet that definition.
Regarding your personal attacks: My location is irrelevant to the truth of this argument and I have never said where I live. Beyond that, there is still no obligation for a Jew to move to Eretz Yisrael today; it is a decision based on individual circumstances and Daas Torah—a concept you seem to dismiss.
Finally, I use Torah sources to attack the Zionist idolatry you refer to as Religious Zionism. I reject offering any gratitude to the State of Israel, just as I would reject gratitude toward the Nazi regime, reformist disruptors, or any other anti-Semitic ideology seeking to destroy authentic Judaism.
To finish off the absurdity of your anti-Semitic claims about what Judaism teaches—claims that are truly against the Torah: You skip over all the steps that must take place before Kibbush Ha’aretz in the brocho that you mentioned. Beyond that, you ignore the Shulosh Shavios which forbid ascending en masse/with force to Eretz Yisrael. You also ignore the great danger that exists for Jews living all together in one spot. Chazal say that one of the blessings of our exile was that we were dispersed as a safety measure, so that the Jewish people could not be wiped out at once.
But you don’t worry about that, because you aren’t concerned with saving Jewish lives. You are concerned with saving the Zionist idolatry and maintaining political power for your government, despite the rivers of Jewish blood that are spilled to keep those evil people in power.
It is not just about Nusach HaTefillah or the specific dispute regarding those who include the word ‘l’artzeini’ and those who don’t. For some reason, you reject the words Raavad that say the Kibbutz Galiyosis going to initially be in the Midbar (wilderness). You reject that, you reject all the sources I’ve mentioned and you reject all the Divine threats of punishment—all for your fake Moshiach called the State of Israel. All for your fake redemption that cares for nothing in Torah except for your own desire to have guns, violence, and power. Zionism is a sick religion.it sounds like you are getting the correct message: don’t get torah from strangers online
I suppose you’re trying to throw as much of your own dirt around to see what might stick, as you’re grabbing on to half-baked claims and straw man desperations.
In any case, besides two specific points in haluch (voting and taking money from the medina) you won’t find any Gadol in Torah that was cholek on Satmar Rebbe. If I am missing something, please let me know.Rav Shmuelewitz was not an influential posek, so there is obviously no one cholek on him for any major psak.
If Rav Shmuelewitz was indeed paskining a chiddish against Satmar Rebbe (who was then the Rebbe of and Av Beis Din of Yerushalayim where Rav Shmuelewitz lived) or against Agudah’s other leadership. he would have spelled out the Torah rational for such a psak (as every posek is obligated to do when being michadesh against the norm). If he did do that, please let me know where it can be found.
@yankel-berel, I don’t understand how even tie your own shoes, as your foolishness is embarrassing. You somehow pretend the Satmar Rebbe, who was primarily a world renowned posek, was in fact a poetic mashpiah is his (not binding?) sifrei haluche. And Rav Shmuelewitz, who was a world renowned rosh yeshiva, was in fact a substantive posek!Are you also confused which hand is your right or left?
There is no ambiguity in Torah about the requirement of a miraculous redemption, as this is explicit psikim that chazal maintain their literal reading.
This is such a clear point in Torah that the Rambam includes it in the 13 ikarim and claims anyone who doesn’t believe in the miraculous redemption is no longer part of the am yisroel.
Beyond that, if there is any confusion in identifying if any redemption-like events qualify as “miraculous enough”, we are repeatedly taught by chazal through to poskim rishonim and achronim that we must presume that the claim is fraudulent and we must reject such claims specifically because there will in reality be no doubt when the real redemption happens and there will be no necessity for us Jews to figure it out as the redemption will happen regardless of us realizing it. This is so clear that the Rambam emphasizes in Yad Chazukeh that no signs or miracles should fool us into believing a moshiach sheker, rather the only “sign” we should follow is doing tshiva, a firm perquisite to the real geila (because we are always allowed/required to do tshiva, so no risk of following a moshaich sheker).
The saddest part of this whole conversation is that everything I wrote is both clear and emphatically expressed throughout our Torah, yet so many fools don’t even bother to read them nor do they listen to the actual published teaching of our Gedolim regarding the subject and how critical these point are to even starting life as a Jew.@square_root
doing tshiva is not mesiras nefesh. they mean different things.
also, why the condecending attitde towards baalei tshiva? they don’t neeed to be appreciated more than any other kosher yid. we all must do tshiva.i find the format of CR to be incredibly frustrating for any real conversation, specifically the long delayed responses and the open table format where anyone who wants to interact is forced to interrupt a single linear thread of conversation, either getting ignored or undermining the original focus of the thread.
you missed perhaps a more obvious absurdity in @simcha613 heresy, which is the implication that kibitz gulyous means moving to EY. Kibitz gulyous is just as relevent in London or NY.
I would ask, if I thought he had any yiras shomayim, why @simcha613 doesn’t join his bretheren in Brooklyn for that kibbitz gulyous that he claims to daven for three times a day.
@ujm
It’s much more absurd than that. The Satmar Rebbe was very explicit and adamant that what he taught, published, and dedicated much of his life to was very much halacha lemaaseh. Beyond that he had the full agreement of a large majority of Gedolim and only minor disagreement on some edge cases with others.
Regarding the claim against Rav Shmuelevitz, it was a one-time remark that had no practical applicable intent when it was delivered and had no parallel in the rest of his teachings. There is little issue in either saying he was wrong and/or he didn’t mean it literally.
Beyond this, we Jews are obligated to keep the Torah, and a single coment by a Gadol cannot uproot Torah. At worse, if the evils of the zionist heretics on this site were to be believed, he would be a zuken mamre, chsv”sh.@kgn
being “haredi” by names means rejecting the “zionist” state. You could argue that the “agudah” camp of the charedi world makes a (self-described illogical and abstract ‘horaas shu’ah’ see sefer “Biyas Hazman”) distinction between the zionist identity and the practical functions of the government, the chraedi Gedolim still unanimously protest the existence of the state in the same way their predecessors unanimously protest the existence of the Nazi regime in Europe.Again, I challenge you as I have challenged others here to find any Torah source, (seforim, sh”ut or otherwise) by Gedolim who have said differently (this includes Rav Shach as well as Lubavitcher Rebbe).
@yankel-berel
you’re attack on @Hakatan is absurd. it’s not very difficult: we have a Torah to keep. Either R’ shmilevitz was wrong or he was being poetic (“emotional”). No one (except you) claims he was a kofer and endorsing another religion.@gadolhadofi
what’s the problem?As usual you didn’t even read what I wrote:
“May all those who promote such gezera ruos meet a swift and peaceful eradication as per the blessing of “v’al malshinin””That is my “three times a day” tefila for both hamas and zionist soldiers.
@shimon-katz
I’m at a loss of words. Who is calling for a political “sudden change of status quo”? The handful of long form interviews I’ve listen to from NK leaders are clear that they are not pushing any political agenda, no practical action, rather their activism is purely theological in nature.And you are correct, taking charge politically of the situation is precisely one of the many sins of the zionist evil movement. No one is picking up a gun to stop the IDF in the name Torah.
It baffles me that this is not obvious if you have ever read anything from NK or anyone else from the Torah world. From top to bottom Torah’s anti-zionism like it anti-catholicism is about saving Jewish lives.