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I see you continue to have no interest in engaging in good faith discussion. I asked you to even try to give over my opinion, just to state that you understand how I hold, but you couldn’t even do that.
As fun as it is watching you squirm and imagining you angrily typing away your responses, I’m gonna stop this here. I’m done (for now at least). This is exhausting.
Congrats to Yankel Berel for successfully defending a genocide. May history remember you fondly.
And its FlamingOTD not flamingo. As cool as pink birds are, my name is an ironic twist on being “on fire” and being “OTD.” Please stop referring to me as flamingo.
I do appreciate you getting my pronouns right though. Thank you for that.
In the same sentence you say you respect all people you call me a filthy liar that has punishment coming from shamayim.
I’m genuinely confused. And you say you respect all people, I’m really curious how you feel about Jews that are not frum. Beyond that you have repeatedly spread islamaphobic and Arab hating positions.
Also I never excused the US colonial endeavors or the colonial endeavors of other imperialist nations. The US certainly committed atrocities and genocides around the world (including in Japan). If anything I think Israel is more of an arm of the US imperialist goals. We are acting as their puppets, though it happens to also benefit us.
Also all of the nations run by islamist regimes are certainly worthy of critique and there is good argument to do what we can to protect the people impacted that are living in these regimes. At the same time those regimes are not currently guilty of active genocide and erasure of indigenous people.
To claim that the Jews are indigenous to Israel is silly. Even in the Torah we came in and conquered we were not from modern day Israel.
You also started inching towards blaming the empathy of the Nova festival goers for there own deaths which is pretty disturbing honestly. I don’t think hamas’ attack was motivated by the deep and loving empathy of the Israeli people. And no it’s not just because they are Jewish. We stole there land. Actively massacre and starve their people. And claim to offer peace when we actively refuse even the idea of creating a land with actual equal rights. Don’t tell me arabs have the same rights lol. So your telling me my Jewish status means nothing when applying for citizenship and housing in Israel? The fact that i have privileges in that land for just being Jewish is deeply problematic. It is prioritizing one ethnic group over another, and in a space where historically we haven’t been “from” in a very long time, and it’s not like I’m sitting here in the US actively being oppressed. That thought is silly. The Jewish people are thriving around the world right now. By almost every measurable standard we have.
You also ironically talked about European settlers, I mean that is what the Zionists are/were. Certainly many Arab Jews too, but this is a European settler led movement, that even discriminated against Arab Jews at the start.
As an Arab Jew your continued conflation with Arab as bad is deeply offensive. Also your questioning of my Jewish roots just because of my opinions. I mean c’mon, given the region I come from its likely my yichus is more directly traceable than yours.
All of this would be comical if not tragic. Your opinions actively put lives at risk. I’m not calling you a filthy liar. I don’t think you think you are a bad person. . What I do think is well… Take what you threw at me at just say it about you re: brainwashed sheep
I guess I’m curious. Like do you really think I’ve been brainwashed? Like is it not just possible I have a different philosophical opinion, as you do. I guess I claim brainwash because your opinion seems to deeply ignore the realities on the ground. And I see that you think I’m doing the same. This impass honestly feels endless.
If you could actually engage with me, let’s try something. I’ll state how you hold @yankel berel and in return you can state back how I hold. Just to make sure we are seeing each other’s opinions eye to eye.
You hold that Israel is the place we come from and ultimately our birthright as stated both in the Torah and based on the actual history of the Jewish people. You hold that the world is an has been a dangerous place for Jewish people and that the active existence of the state of Israel protects Jews not just there but everywhere as the world can turn on us at any moment. You also hold that if Hamas and other Palestinian leaders actually accepted a peace deal we would not need to be in any active or murderous conflict. You also deny any concept of genocide (at least by the Israelis) as you see this as self defense. On top of that you see that the Palestinian people (at least majority) have a deep seeded hatred of Jews, and that any attempts at integration would be dangerous and naive. You hold that if Palestinians had voting rights in the land of Israel we could be overrun and outpaced in population and lose our safety and rights. You hold that the state of Israel protected Jews that lived in Israel at the time of creation, and to this day. You hold that any claims of genocide can be akin to blood libel, being that we are accusing the Jews of senseless murder, and even using this as motivation to support terrorists. You also hold that hamas is using children as human meat shields. On top of that you would contest that they had there land stolen, and see it more as conquered or even that they tried to attack us so we needed to push them further out. You would justify this and say that every modern country did this and no one seems to be complaining. You would also protest that islamist run countries moved there Jews out and are currently unsafe places for Jews and people of other religions and potentially even sects within Islam.
Ultimately you see Israel as a right, and a necessity for the Jewish people, now and forever. And the existence of Hamas and the Palestenian people (who you deny exist) is just one in a long line or enemies of the Jewish people standing in the way of that and actively threatening the Jewish people.
Also that the media has bought there story hook line and sinker. They fell for their propaganda and are mistaken in feeling bad for them. Like someone who feels bad for a wolf or something while chastising the shepherd for trying to protect his sheep.
And you think I fell for this too because I read too much of it, or didn’t stay in yeshiva long enough, or may not even be Jewish.
And that based on my positions and opinions I deserve severe punishment.
Is there anything else I missed?
Okay I went and did it. And you’ll still find a way to call me a narrow minded person parroting what the media feeds me. My friend I ask you have you ever even questioned the realities fed to you from birth?
Anyway here you go. For you, or anyone else reading. May there be peace on this world very soon and the end of genocide done in our name and otherwise.
1] how many innocent german children died in world war two ?
was that genocide ?
if not , why not ?…….
Well 1st off are you considering the German Jewish children who were genocided as “germans”?
if so, many were, not sure the number but the Nazis genocided many german children from jewish families
if your asking about non-jewish german children, i would imagine there are many who died, but not neccesarily from genocide neccesarily.
of course other groups in germany were genocided beyond just the Jews in WWII, Romani, Disabled,
and while not exactly by UN definition genocide, we can throw in there Gay and communist germans were specifically targeted for their identities and beliefs.Genocide definition (UN 1948): Intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.
if your talking about the “german children” who died at the hands of the Allies, these were more casulties of war than genocide as per definition above.
What differentiates this from genocide is the intent. And this is vital when understanding what is happening in Palestine.
Just because Israel isn’t using the most efficient methods (gas chambers etc.) doesnt mean it isn’t targeted destruction of a people.Intent from Israeli Government:
– Comments interpreted as comparing Palestinians to “human animals” — language that the commission viewed as dehumanizing and facilitating violence
– Statements by political and military leaders framed in religious or absolute terms, such as invoking the command to destroy Amalek, which can be understood as “total annihalation”
– A letter by a top official to soldiers described in the UN report as stressing a kind of “total annihilation” approach, which the commission treated as an indicator of intent to destroy a group.Even if there’s no written “genocide plan,” the report argues that the only reasonable inference from a consistent pattern of policies and actions is genocidal intent. This is sometimes referred to in international law as making intent the only plausible explanation for what has happened.
The report highlights these patterns:
– Deliberate deprivation and siege conditions
A long‑term blockade restricting food, water, medicine, fuel and humanitarian access to Gaza, which severely harmed civilians.
– Scale and nature of mass harm
Very high civilian death tolls, including large numbers of children, from repeated bombardments and operations
– Destruction of vital infrastructure
Widespread destruction of homes, hospitals, schools, water systems, and other infrastructure indispensable to civilian survival.
– Measures affecting births
Destruction of reproductive health facilities (such as IVF clinics) and other services that affect the ability of the population to reproduce — which the UN commission treated as potentially fitting one of the Convention’s categories.………..
2] given that hamas – and the majority of so called palestinians supported by many millions more outside palestine,
fanatically want israel and its jewish inhabitants to literally disappear from the face of the earth
why do you describe people dying in israel’s defensive wars as dying to ‘make space’ for it ?
why are they not considered as dying to defend their own families existence ? ……In all this, your assumption is that because they want to “wipe us out” that we have a right to self defense.
1st the current populations of Jews in israel were not in need of this “self-defense” from Hamas prior to the establishment of the state of israel.
Were they in danger in their own countries from other threats? Yes many were (and many were only in reaction to the creation of the state, but thats a whole rabbit hole not even neccasary here). Jews being in danger, doesnt mean that the answer was to plop a colonial ethno-nationalist enterprise in the center of the middle east and to displace the indegenous population that is in their weay. The answer could have been (and was for many) to find saftey in countries that will make space for jewish people (ie. the USA where the Jewish people have thrived by almost all measures).For the small number of Jews that did live in israel continuously, I don’t think the best answer to protect them was too move all of their neighbors and establish a state around them. Many of the indegenous Jews of Palestine, as well as other Jews from the middle east were actually discriminated against by the Zionists. This endevor was certainly not done in the name of their protection.
Also in regards to Hamas and supporters of the Palestine movement wanting to “wipe us all out”
1st off Hamas does not represent the viewpoints of majority of Palestenian.
Secondly, they do not want Israelis to “literally dissapear from the face of the earth” nor do Palestenian supporters across the globe, including myself.
What they want is freedom for their people, and ability to access the land that was horrificly stolen, and to be able to have lives outside of the open air prison set up by the IDF and funded by the US.Food, housing, healthcare, equal rights on the land.
You’ll say they rejected every peace offer. LOL.
No peace offer since the creation of Israel has included an offer that eliminated Jewish supremacy on Palestenian land.
Israel does not have a “right to exist” if that means that it will be a place where Jews have more rights than non-jews.
No land should have a right to exist that prioritizes one people over another. Particularly if those people are non-natives (or their decendents).
Obviously, Israel is not the only offender in this spce, the US has horrificly stole land and genocided the indegenous people.
The only difference is the activeness of the genocide. The US is NOT currently genociding the Native Americans. That doesn’t excuse the harm, nor erase other forms of current systemic oppression and more subtle violence, but it is in a different category of urgency when compared to what is happening in Palestine right now.Personally I am arguing for one state one vote with reperations.
would some people need to move to make space yes, but certainly Jewish presence can remain in the region alongside Palestenians and others of all races and religions, with equality for all.3] why are you blindly parroting the distortions by the biased media ?
why are you ignoring the fanatical armed men hiding in between those innocent children who are the real criminals
who are the ones who have the blood of those children on their hands ?
The real criminals? Blood on their hands? You mean Netanyahu and the IDF? Who are committing genocide.
………You accuse me of parroting, while you literaly parrot the logic of whatever echochambers you live inside of, you are guilty of the same.
What I’ll ask is a perspective shift. Why do we “need” israel to exist to protect the Jewish people. We are currently safe in the US. We are wealthy, succesful, integrated into the culture, government etc. I get that this was the case in Germany that many Jews felt safe. Feeling “more German than Jewish” but that doesnt mean the solution is to have a country.
A potential solution is to educate on genocide, and create an atmosphere of acceptance of all people regardless of race,ethnicity, religion etc. Currently that is not what the Jewish people are doing as a whole. We are teaching Jewish children to hate Arabs (when I am litterally an arab-jew and i am not alone). We are teaching Jewish children to hate Muslims, and overall to look down on Non-Jews and even on Non-religious Jews. For me the hatred towards goyim and non-practicing yiddim is a form of racism and is deeply innaproriate.
Education, love, acceptance, these things stop genocide, not literally doing genocide.
Whatever Hamas does, does not erase the damage the IDF and the Israel project has done, and continues to do.
This is not meant to justify Hamas’ behaviors, but instead to hold the IDF accountable for their behaviors. Claiming this is all just “fighting hamas” without the context of the Nakba and the active oppression of the Palestenian people is missing vital parts of the picture.
IF i removed you and your family and your communitty from their neighborhood, and stuffed you into an open air ghetto, would you not want to fight back? How would you feel if a group of your friends tried to fight back and yes did some awful things in the process, would it be okay if your captors came and murdered you and your childfren for it? Try for a second to imagine how it feels to be removed from your home, your land, and living in an open air prison. This shouldnt be too hard, the Jewish people have exprienced opression throughout their history. The only difference here, is we are on the side of the opressor now. At least in this case. Its quite clear given the history and power differential.
……..
4] why are those fanatical men not offering the usage of their hundreds of kms of tunnels to those innocent children ?
is it because they are hoping for [!] those innocent children to be blown to bits ?
and hoping for flamingOTD to write heartwrenching ‘humane’ posts about those evil zionists ?………….
Are you claiming that it is Hamas’ fault that they arent offering enough places to hide from Israeli missles?
And not blaming the ones shooting the missles. Do you see how your not even considering that Israel holds any culpability in this.
The idea that Hamas wants more Palestenian kids to die to help their cause is a sickening Zionist lie, ironically sounding very much like the “blood libels” used against Jews for millinea.5] why are you prepared to be the prop and the useful idiot in the hands of those very same criminals
who are the ones who have the blood of the children from their own community on their own hands
and are counting on you to do their bidding ?
…………Not sure whos bidding im doing. You are clearly doing zoinist bidding right now. And potentially the bidding of the US imperial war machine.
I do not support religious extremism. That includes religious motivated genocide. That includes the Zionist state. I do support equality and human rights. For all humans. Not just the ones we like and consider “chosen.”
…..6] what happens to a jew who walks by himself into most so called ‘nongenocidal’ arab towns in the middle east ?
what happens to an arab who walks by himself into most so called ‘genocidal’ israeli towns in the middle east ?
can you give an honest reality based answer ?
after this answer — with honesty and reality , which side is the real genocidal one ?
……….
Depends on the town for the Jewish person. Not every “arab town” is anti-semitic (again I am arab so please stop using this as a slur).
Look it certainly not safe to be openly Jewish in many Muslim majority coutnries with Islamic rule embeded in law.
I’m not saying anti-semitism doesnt exist. I’m saying the solution to anti-semitism isn’t the state of israel. its education, care, connection, love. Hate and violence to not create less hate and violence.You know what isn’t safe? Being a Palestenian in a country with aspects of Torah rule embedded in law.
Hell even in their “own” towns and spaces Palestinains are actively in danger of violence from the IDF.
Just because its governemnt approved and sactioned doesn’t make it okay nor does it erase it from a context of violence.
………..7] anywhere between 600000 and two and a half million German civilians died during the 1940’s as a result of the Allies war against Germany .
Is that genocide ? ? ?……………
No, as i said it lacks intent. Ironically Israel has a lot more in common with Nazi germany, then the analogy your trying to make… Israeli deaths at the hands of the Palestenians are not neccesarily genocide.…………..
8] do you recognize the established fact that …. there are arab ministers , supreme court judges and MK’s in israel ?
so why do you repeat the lie that israel is racist ?
…………..We can have a black president, and black billionaires that doesnt erase systemic racism in the US.
If anything it can serve to enable these systems “see we are equal”
when for the majorities this isn’t true.Like saying theres a chance people can get rich if they play the lottery.
In plain terms, Israel is a state that prioritizes Jewish life over others. That is ethnist/racist.
And historically it has treated its arab jewish population awfully, and these sentiments still do live in the country even in subtle discrimination against sephardis in the frum world, but certainly on larger scales as well.
This is not unique to Israel. The US is horrific in terms of actual living its supposed values of equality.
What is unique to Israel is the law that prioritzes Jewish people.
………9] do you recognize the established fact that jews come from all diverse ‘races’ . brown, white, black and yellow ?
so why do you repeat the lie that israel is racist ?
………..
The initial european Zionist settlers certainly were racist, considering arab Jews “bad human material”
As I mentioned these seeds of racism certainly still live in the culture.Beyond that the word can be tricky to name given Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity and maybe even a race is complex.
But it clearly prioritizes Jewish life over Non-jewish. And certainly discriminates against Palestenian ethnicity.
………..10] considering the context of hamas hiding behind civilians coupled with international denial of civilians the natural and essential option
of running away
why do the Arab and leftist hypocrites who block their escape not have their innocent blood on their own hands ???…………
The surrounding arab nations do have blood on their hands
I think their decisions are heavily influenced by geo-politics, including fear of Israel/US retaliation.Wether or not Hamas existed, Israel would still be attempting to expand its borders and take more land away from the Palestinian people and create a country that actively erases their indegenous connection to the land, and creates discriminatory laws that prioritize non-natives (Jewish settlers) over the actual people native to the land and desperately in need of that access to land. (the fact that I as a US citizen have such easy access to citizenship and land in israel is deeply sickening considering just how safe I am here, and just how desperately the need for that access is for palestenians.
……………
11] Were the majority of deaths civilian in the invasion of Iraq ??
Were the majority of deaths civilian in the War in Afghanistan ??
…………….I do not condone the US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan. What the US has done (and continues to do) is horrific. The US has funded this current genocide in Palestine. I blame them more than the israeli governemnt, more than the IDF honestly. I believe we are acting as a puppet for the US. At best we have mutual interest, and even in this lens the US is a horrific enabler of the genocide.
…………..12] Why is the fact that the vast majority of deaths in gaza are civilian , any proof that israel does not target terrorists ??
is it not possible that civilians are killed because of hamas hiding and mingling with them ???
do you have real proof that this is not the case ??
…………….
The names of the children i mentioned were not terrorists target casualities. These were people mistaken for dangers based on their ethnicity and murdered. Not unlike what happens in the US. The difference here is not just based on the side-effect casulties of Israel targeting terrorists. Its on the system of harm that has created and continues to sustain this situation. Israel existing as a state that prioritizes Jewish lif is actively oppresive towards anyone else who would try to live in that land. That would already be bad, what makes it a crime is that people that used to live in that space most recently were displaced, and opressed for generations.…………
13] Why does hamas not give shelter to civilians in their many hundreds kms long tunnels ???
could it be that civilian casualties is a desired outcome for them ???
…….
You already asked this. I can’t imagine these tunnels would be much safer. And none of this takes away the blame from the IDF for sending the missles.
……14] if many millions of people would support nazism , would you fall in line , simply because that would be “the perspective of the world” at the time ????
……..
I am not supporting the perspective of the world. If anything the powers at be support Israel.
I make my decisions on ethics and values. I was raised deeply zionist. I spent much time deconstructing this belief system.
If anyone is the puppet parroting beliefs they are too tied to it is you.Question for you…
Have you ever even questioned the beliefs you were raised with?
……..15] compare arab population growth in palestine from 1860 – 1940 with arab population growth in syria , jordan and lebanon …
communities with same cultural characteristics , how come there is such a huge difference in population growth ?
the answer is arab immigration towards palestine … lured there to benefit from huge zionist investments ….
so why do they merit the unearned moniker of ‘indigenous’ ????
…………Okay you are literally describing the Zionist agenda and immigration of Jews from around the world.
Being indigenous does not require that every ancestor lived there forever. It means that a significant, continuous community lived in a region for generations before modern borders and nation-state definitions. By that definition, Palestinians are considered by most historians and anthropologists to be indigenous to the region.
………….
16] the so called ‘palestinians’ NEVER had an independent country
not under caliph omar from 638 who was muslim
not under the mamelukes from 1239 who were muslim
not under the ottomans from 1516 who were muslim
not under the jordanians and the egyptians from 1948 who were muslim
why did their own muslim ‘brothers’ not grant them a country ??
…………
I cannot answer for the sins of the past of groups i do not claim to support nor agrree with.
Nor do these sins justify the violence of the present day.
I do not think having a “country” is needed to be considered an indegenous people.
Native americans did not “have a country”
Nationalism is a relatively modern invention.
………….17] did you hear the true tales of the real ‘indigenous’ yazidi , of what happened to them ????
of the kurds ???
of the alawites ???
of the druze ????
why do you think the lot of the jews will be any better ???
……………ISIS exterminated Muslims, Yazidis, Christians, Jews, Shiites, and Sunnis alike.
Using ISIS to argue against coexistence is like using Nazis to argue against European democracy.
We can live in peace together it is possible.Kurds have been oppressed by:
* Turkey
* Iraq (Ba’athist regime)
* Iran
* Syria
All centralized nation-states trying to enforce ethnic homogeneity. This is exactly the argument against ethno-states, not for themAlawites were historically persecuted — until they captured the Syrian state.
What followed?
* Minority rule
* Brutal repression
* Civil war
* Mass death
This is not a story of safety. It’s a story of minority domination producing catastrophe.
Which should make Zionists less, not more, confident in ethno-state logic.And the druze have survived without a state.
Also Israel is not the only place Jews can currently live in the world.
The US is very safe for Jewish people.
The “rise of anti-semitism” is way overblown.
Jews have thrived in the US.
Quite clearly. And its not our only home, but it can be one of many.
We don’t israel to be safe….
I think Jewish success in the US has been a major point of evidence for this.More importantly,
We should not be committing genocide to protect Jewish lives.
Not only is this sickening, I do not even think it works in the long term.
For us, and the world around us.May we have peace soon in our days.
Your response is quite telling of a person who is having their delusions challenged. Not sure if I can treat your delusional worldview over the messages on an online forum… But for anyone reading this back and forth I think theres some vital observations:
The 17-question cross-examination framed with insults and loyalty tests.
This style of argument doesn’t invite understanding, it is designed to overwhelm It relies on false binaries (agree or you support terrorism and religious extremists), moral intimidation, and the idea that empathy for civilians is treason.
I reject that frame.
One can oppose Hamas’ tactics and beliefs, care deeply about Jewish safety and human safety in general, and still question how mass civilian harm is justified or dismissed. Ethical reflection is not betrayal, it’s how societies avoid becoming what they fear. And I’m done sitting idly by as I watch the Jewish people support and cheer on a genocide.
Never again, means never again. Not just for us. For everyone.
“this is clear to anyone not bribed by idealogical blinkers”
I mean your like a tape recorder at this point. and the funniest is this is exactly what you are doing.
I understand you fear anti-semitic hatred. I understand the world hasn’t been kind to the Jewish people, I also understand that many parts of the world have been. And that stealing land and committing genocide is certainly not the only solution to stopping hatred and genoicde.
If you looked around you’d see most of the western world actually wants to make space and has made space for accepting and loving people of all faiths, pigment colors and backgrounds.
Obviously the west is not living up to its ideals right now. ICE is hunting down migrants, trans lives are at risk daily (particularly trans kids), and people from minority backgrounds face discrimination daily. Around the world we are struggling too. Our systems are far from perfect, but that does not mean we cannot work towards peace, and work together with our neighbors jewish and non-jewish alike to make a better world.
Jewish people certainly experience oppression and hatred, but currently thats NO WHERE near the level of hatred sent towards the groups i just mentioned. And of most importance and relevance to this situation, the current hatred and persecution Jews face is NOTHING compared to the persecution Palestinian residents of Gaza face daily at the hands of the “Jewish State” and funded by the US government, and enabled by the rest of the worlds powers.
ITs devastating to watch, but certainly has not dimmed my hope for creating and being part of world that actually can learn to live with each other. A world not just good for Jews, but for everyone. And I don’t think the goal of the Torah was too just protect the Jewish people. It was for the world, we were the first born but not the last. Its about time we start acting like the model nation we prapport to be. Whats currently happening is embarrassing and shameful.
For me, the first step was deconstruction my rigid biases, and actually beginning to see Non-jews as people worthy of respect and dignity. I think that level of empathy can take us as a communitty a long way.
If you can simplify and clarify your questions it’s hard to read them between your ALL CAPS personal insults when trying to have a grounded philosophical discussion.
You continue to equate my thinking with “shallowness” “evil” “vile” and “danger”
People who equate questioning with danger usually:
Confuse safety with control
Confuse unity with obedience
Confuse certainty with morality
I ask you to consider that your worldview is being limited by your imagination. Honestly without a source I’d still have solid arguments, having outside sources that confirm genocide certainly help. But even to the naked eye the issue is blatantly awful.
I realize the Jewish people have been hurt by Palestenians, and the world as a whole. I realize they see they’re work as protecting Jews from people who want them dead. I realize this is a rational response to a people, our people, who have suffered deep generational trauma.
And I also realize that it is that generational trauma and deep fear of outsiders as well as narrow world views lacking empathy and imagination of what others lives and perspectives are like, that can prevent us from actually seeing the harm we are causing.
I’m advocating for a world where the Jewish people actually live up to our title. A light onto the nations. Not a continuation of the world’s awful dynamics. The palestenian genocide is not unique to the Jewish people. Nor is it even mostly there fault honestly I see this as a US funded project led and enabled by US support.
I hope very soon we can see the problematic abusive system we have allowed ourselves to be a part of in the name of our own safety.
You’re not responding to what I asked — you’re responding to what you’re afraid I implied.
I didn’t say the Torah isn’t emet. I posed a hypothetical to ask an important question:
Should support for a modern nation-state depend on religious truth claims, or can it stand on secular ethics, safety, and shared humanity?Many Jews — religious and non-religious — support Jewish safety and self-determination without believing that ancient texts grant unlimited moral license or foreclose ethical critique.
Asking how our actions look to the world is not “outsourcing thinking.” It’s acknowledging reality: perception shapes consequences, legitimacy, and safety.
You can disagree with my conclusions without questioning my intelligence, my Jewishness, or my capacity to think.
Also without the blatant Islamophobia in your post among other problematic tones.If that’s not possible here, then this isn’t a conversation — it’s a shiur led by you.
Curious, if you were not Jewish and you knew the Torah was not true. Lets say you had a bas kol from shamayim telling you the Torah wasn’t true, would you still support the idea of Israel?
Like from the perspective of the world, we are using an ancient religious text to justify the genocide of an indigenous group of people. We certainly wouldn’t be the first group to do this (see manifest destiny and many others).
Like without the Truth of the Torah by our sides is this truly the best way for Jews to be safe? with a random country in the middle east that we once had connection to? Like we werent the only ones who lived there. At no point was this land officially “ours for eternity” beyond of course the guarantee from the Torah.
But for those that don’t believe in the Torah, you must be able to see how they see things. Even if this was just for Jewish saftey, why would any non jew think to prioritize Jewish saftey if it mean genociding another oppressed group. There must be better ways to insure Jewish saftey that doesnt include Palestenian murder and continued displacement.
And now we don’t have to move out the current Jews, one state is a viable option. The Palestenians are not looking just to harm us. They want a home and rights. That makes sense. Anyone would want that. Including us or anyone else.
@chaim87 they won’t put their guns down if their land has been systemically stolen. The land that is there (israel) prioritizes one race over another. And while certainly in our Torah we prioritize Jewish life, governments are not beholding to Torah law.
To call the genocide “completely false” is way too easy of a cop out. That word has been supported by organizations inside and outside of Israel. At the very least you’d have to bring some STRONG evidence to back your claims that these organizations are biased against Israel for whatever reasons. If anything the powers at be have strongly supported Israel over Palestine. While yes the left wingers and many young college students and profs are pro Palestine, most of the people with actual power are pro-israel, and more specificly the US government pouring billions into Israel.
The idea that “israel only targets terrorists” is deeply false too. A vast majority of the deaths in Gaza are civillian. Most recently a 10 and 12 year old were killed for the heinous crime of collecting wood for their disabled father.
I realize that this can be hard to fathom, as we have been trained our entire lives to see it from the perspectives of the Jewish heroes fighting the world that hates us. I certainly was raised in an extremely zionist environment, that saw any words against Israel as an attack on all Jews. I stopped supporting Israel as I became more frum and I felt the state founded by atheists did not have Torah goals in mind.
My opinion since then has continued to evolve. Once I got a better understanding of the actual power dynamics in the middle east, it became unmistakably clear that there is an oppressed and an oppressor. This does not erase Hamas’ actions, October 7th, or a history of global anti-semitism. Yes Jews have been oppressed. And yes they too are oppressors. The two are not mutually exclusive.
If your curious and are comfortable going on youtube there is a video by a youtuber named Overzealots called “Destroying every zionist talking point” that really helped me and opened my eyes.
Yes I have. Initially I held that I could change minds through posts on this forum. I know have serious doubts in that position. Ultimately, I still hold hope that the posts don’t just influence those who respond, but those silent readers not posting. So I guess you never know.
I feel similarly about blaming queer and LGBTQ+ people for the birth rate crisis.
Obviously we know where the Torah stands on most of this behavior (though that does not take away space for compassion).Though, to blame this group for the lowering rate of births, grossly misses the actual cause of the crisis, and that is a current economic setting which makes it difficult for any family to have children. Medical care is sky rocketing, groceries, housing, basic needs. We see beggars in shuls everyday with their children in desperate situations. It’s heartbreaking. And honestly it is preventing families from bringing more nishamot into this world.
With better systems for providing housing, health care and food, we could have an environment which makes room for more people and more room to help families feel safe and secure expanding, and knowing there kids won’t be starving or begging on the streets.
Using caps does not undue wealth disparity, nor make your statements more true.
There is an amazing cartoon
It has an old man with a giant plate a of cookies
a construction worker with one cookie
and a migrant with no cookiesThe Old man with the giant plate of cookies looks at the construction worker and says
“that migrant wants to steal your cookie!”To blame rising costs of living, health care and groceries on migrants, is grossly missing the roots of the problem.
There is a deep disparity of wealth and resources in this country.Imagine the resources we have in the US are like an island with a waterfall.
Naturally everyone would come to the waterfall for water to drink.
Then certain people build pipes on the waterfall, preventing access to others, and hoarding the water
they call it “maintaining the waterfall” and then charge a tax to get water from them
Some can afford it
others can’t and are left needing assistance to get funds and access to the waterfall
Others have come from around the world too, as these people piping the water, have also piped the waterfalls of their island nationsSuddenly the water hoarders start increasing prices for water
and the middle group is having trouble affording it already and feeling the pressure
And then the water hoarders also start telling the middle group
“its because of all those hand outs we are giving the poor and the migrants”
and they convince the middle group to hate on the migrants and the poor
literally doing their bidding for them.So instead of the middle class being justifiably angry at the water hoarders
they punch down, and blame those on the bottom for daring to be in needThe words some of you guys use in arguments are really awful here. To think this is supposed to be “Torah” minded yidden. I want to throw up from the imagery you just put in my mind.
And for what do i deserve this? suggesting we have compassion. Wether or not I accept “poor homeless illegals” into my home should not make a difference on what is right and wrong.
I’m not saying you literally need to open your door for these people (though I wonder what Avraham Avinu would have done…)
I am saying AS A COUNTRY, we can create infrastructure to house and support people.
Certainly for US citizens (where we are DESPERATELY failing). Especially for the basic needs. Like average people can’t afford necessary medical treatments while Elon Musk floats towards becoming the first trilionaire and Zuckerberg is building bunkers in Maui.And with all the surplus we have in this country, I don’t see why we cant make space for migrants too, many of whom WOULD LOVE to contribute here and be part of this society.
They already clean our homes, raise our kids, farm our fruits and vegis and work jobs most would never take. Most of these people are wonderful contributors to society, and honestly with proper systems in place I think all can be.I deeply feel we shouldn’t judge people based on the random status of their place of birth. All people should have an opportunity to contribute and be a part of a healthy society.
There is a very important psychological concept in enmeshed narcissistic hierarchical systems called DARVO
Deny
Attack
Reverse
Victim
OffenderThe quotes about “buying the bias of whatever you are fed” I mean c’mon here. Thats literally you.
Your denying the reality of palestenian suffering
attacking me for suggesting it
and reversing who the victim and the offender are
Oh let me play a sad song on the worlds smallest violin for the poor Zionist state, FUNDED WITH BILLIONS OF US DOLLARS.Regarding the questions about a Jew in a Palestinian town and a Palestinian in a Jewish one, your comments are totally off base. Palestine (or what the Zionists are calling Israel), has been turned into a ethno-supremist state favoring Jewish lives over all others. It erases the the history of the Arab muslims and Christians and others, who lived there prior to the Zionist rule. Palestinians are not safe in any Israeli town. Their rights have been stripped, and their land stolen. Palestinians are not safe from Israelis anywhere in Palestine! Not even in the area still being called “theirs” that is really just an open air prison.
I think one of the major things being missed here is the idea of systemic violence. Just because it’s done by a government and with laws and court approvals, doesn’t make it okay. The Israeli government and army, funded and supported with billions from the US, has systemically erased and genocided the Palestinian people. Just because its not with gas chambers, doesn’t make it not genocide.
I mean someone in this chat literally said they pray for the destruction of Muslims. I mean c’mon now. The Muslims are not the enemy of the Jews. Our real enemy is hierarchical power systems that treat human lives as an after thought. That is what got us in the Holocaust, that has what has got us throughout our history.
I am not denying Muslims were at points in power and performed these abuses. I am not denying the deeply problematic ideologies in the Koran. I could say the same for many Christian ideologies too which have been responsible for the loss of countless Jewish lives. But to pray for the deaths of “Christians and Muslims” when many of them basically share our same values is ludicrous and deeply Islamaphobic.
I think its important when understanding the distaste among youth of the democratic party, it actually has a lot to do with their hypocrisy. These people who called themselves “liberals” were just neo-liberal capitalists, through and through. Saying they care about human rights, and what not, while just lining the pockets of the wealthy and powerful, and increasing the wealth divide in this country.
None of these so called “democratic” or “liberal” politicians, made real change about impacting issues important to young people struggling with this current economy. They haven’t provided housing, food, health care in any sustainable way that actually addressed the core of these systemic issues. Like seriously people are suffering right now, feeling the crunch of increasing prices on necessities. The amount of debt people can incur just getting necessary medical procedures is horrific and has impact Jews and Non-jews alike in this country.
i really believe in providing the most good, for the most people. Particularly people suffering from homelessness, starvation and need of medical treatments. And to blame “illegals” for these problems, is really missing the point. Those in power hold the most resources, they have the power to make change. They are choosing not to and choosing to increase their own wealth while others suffer.
Not asking for “hand outs” here, but humanity really.
The name calling doesnt stop. Calling me “Achmed” (which is totally arab-phobic and offensive as an arab jew)
Also assuming my level of practice of the religion based on the words i’m using as critique. Words that describe horrific behavior of individuals and systems. Instead of focusing on how to make this olam better, your focus is discrediting me, and any other criticizer of this anti-Torah agenda.
Can’t i just be a yid who is disheartened by what she is seeing. Devastated by our inaction here.
Excusing the murder of these kids as “Human shields” seriously? With this example? Even the genocidal IDF didn’t use that excuse here, they just said they crossed an invisible line they weren’t supposed to (nor was it clearly marked and they were 8 and 10 years old).
Not all mainstream media has it wrong. Yes lots of it is problematic, but we can’t just write off whatever suits our narrative better. You can excuse the “other side” of ding this too. I get it. But honestly what are the agendas here? what does the mainstream media have against Israel? why would they want to criticize it, if it was truly doing such good. You know most Palestinian supporters say the media favors Israel. I think stats back that up. According to the dataset, New York Times uses “Israel” in headlines over “Palestine” at a ratio of 187 to 1.
I’d hope as “religious” jews (or whatever it is you call yourselves) you wouldn’t support genocidal policies, that defend a made up US satellite state, that puts Jewish lives at risk daily and brings a bad name onto all of klal yisrael.
Honestly tho this is getting tiring. I feel like I’m working up against a brick wall here. I guess maybe you can help me understand your position better.
Do you hold that this is helping us prepare for the coming of mashiach? is it bringing us closer?
Or do you just hold that Jewish people are already there so we need to defend them?
Or do you think that Hamas is genuinely dangerous and needs to be wiped out? If so, should it be a Jewish imperative to wipe out every terrorist threat around the world? Like with guns? Or just the threats that seem target us? When does this stop?
And how do you see the civilians there in Gaza? Are they just “future hamas?” Do they have any humanity. Are we punishing them for their future sins? Is this okay?Also in all this, how do you feel about Jews in the US in general. Are we obliged to move right now? What would be the onus of that motivation? Do you feel its because its dangerous here? are we truly safer there? Does being there not invite more harm? How do we balance this?
Also how do you feel about the religious stance (or lack of one) of the Zionist government.
Genuinely curious.
@Yankel berel
if anyone loved October 7th it was Bibi, and the zionist agenda, who utilized it to excuse a horrific genocidal attack on Gaza.
This has too many parallels to Bush invading Iraq after 9/11. No weapons of mass destruction to be found. Just civilians who had their lives cruelly turned upside down and forever changed, by an Empire, seeking power, and resources.Yes lets define genocide…
Under the 1948 UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, genocide means:
“Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group, as such:”
1. Killing members of the group
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm
3. Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about the group’s physical destruction
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
1. Scale of killing
Extremely high civilian death toll, including huge proportions of women and children
2. Destruction of conditions of life
Systematic:
Blocking food, water, fuel
Destroying hospitals, schools, housing
Forcing mass displacement
Repeated strikes on hospitals, maternity wards, ambulances and medical supply chains have left pregnant people with little or no access to safe delivery and emergency obstetric care — increasing maternal deaths, stillbirths and infant deaths.
3. Statements by officials
Multiple Israeli officials — including senior ministers — have made dehumanizing, annihilationist statements about Palestinians.
Evil, retarded mad woman here.
While we are arguing the IDF keeps killing. Recently it was Fadi and Jumaa. An 8 year old and a 10 year old gathering wood for their family. Their father is paralyzed and wheel chair bound and was at home preparing breakfast for them. They blew the kids to bits with a drone strike. Horrific.
If their names were Mendi and Yischak would you guys care more? Would you see the hatred fueling this genocide. This is not Torah. This is not how people acting in the name of Hashem should behave. If there is a genocidal dangerous ideology here, brainwashing children to become senseless murderers of civilians, it would be called Zionism.
I am not defending Islam or Hamas. I find them also deeply problematic in their ideologies. I also realize that we arent debating here about the merits of Islam or Hamas. We are debating if maintaining this Zionist state is what the Torah, and Hashem would be asking us to be doing right now.
And for me, i find the logic difficult to sit with. Does having a country benefit the Jewish people, perhaps in some aspects, but all too many have to die defending it, and have to die to make space for it. And ultimately the whole thing is one giant global chillul Hashem. This is not the Torah way. This cannot be.
@Yankel Berel
Your responses are deeply problematic on so many levels.
You assume to know my level of Torah study. You also create a binary where “only those who learnt gemarah” can have an opinion. This is occurring in the same world that restricts most women from accessing serious gemarah learning. Not necessarily advocating for this, but I’m just naming that your creating a situation in which most women are not entitled to even having an opinion on anything (outside of the kitchen).
This is deeply sexist, and disrespectful to the wisdom of women everywhere.The suggestion that I “close my mouth and firmly so” is honestly disgusting. Seriously have the courage to actually engage with the ideas i’m presenting not name call, spew sexist rhetoric, and try to shut me down just because the information I’m sharing hurts your feelings.
The relatively peaceful co-existence of arab jews and muslims is well documented.
The erasure of arab culture and history by the Zionist movement is well documented.
The genocide being committed by the IDF and the Israeli government, and supported by US funding, and international enabling, is well documented.The IDF is killing thousands of civilians, in the name of what? creating a land that prioritizes Jewish life over all life. I didn’t see Mashiach ride in on their white donkey yet. This is not the time, this is not the way. The killing of people, children, in the name of this ideology is devastating and needs to stop ASAP. One state, one vote. With reparations. There is no other way.
Very much agree with Kingdavid on the importance of communities where emotional honest is welcomed, particularly for young people.
Understanding the bio-psycho-social model of psychological symptomology has deeply helped me in this regard.
Basically ailments from addiction to schizophrenia, come from a mix of biological factors, upbringing and care (or lack there of), experience of trauma, and other societal factors like what we as a community make space for also other factors like how race, age, gender etc impact this… its all layered together and all happening at once.
To assign medication alone to treat this, can be in some cases not enough, and in many cases, actually lead to us missing the actual issue.
The symptoms often act like keys, guides for us to understand the actual challenges this human is experiencing.I realize meds deeply help people, not here to shame that, but medication is WAY overprescribed. And psychiatrists way undertrained on actually seeing the WHOLE person. Good psychiatrists exist but few and far between.
We see similar problems in the psychology field, rooted in the ancient disease model, that sees people as more illness then neshama.
We need to see the full person. In their context. It is not nature, not nurture, but both and all at the same time.
Quick example. Addiction can come from covering up emotional pain. Treatment cannot just focus on taking away the substance. If anything, the key to healing, lies within the urges to use. It is what they LOVE about the substance, that can help us learn about what they are so deeply seeking, and so deeply missing in their lives, or areas of hurt that deeply need healing.
There is a great model for this in addiction called Harm Reduction Psychotherapy by Dr. Andrew Tatarsky. Powerful stuff. Highly recommend checking out.
Antizionism is not antisemitism. You guys have allowed yourselves to be ignorant to the actual issues at hand in the name of your ideology. And while we bicker Jewish lives are at risk defending this Zionist genocidal myth, and the Palestinians are being slaughtered. For who? For what? This is chillul hashem times a million. I am ashamed to be associated with such opinions just for being Jewish.
I am an antizionist yid and proud.
I have only stated a perspective on Zionism and I have had my Jewish lineage questioned, I’ve been accused of being a Jew hater, a Muslim, a non-jew, and told I’m going to gehenom.
Not once did I name call, or poke fun of you, or question your Jewishness, only stated perspectives.
In logic what your doing is called “ad hominem” when you focus your attack on my character instead of focusing on the issue at hand that I am raising.
I’ve also been called “he” multiple times, I’ll have you know you are debating with a woman.
And a woman who knows her stuff b’h.
Zionism as it is today is not inherently part of Jewish beliefs. If anything it is against those beliefs. Rav Avigdor Miller was strongly against this “atheist” state and encouraged flag burning.
Zionism is a nationalist supremest ideology. It serves the goals of the US and US christians more than it does Jews. If anything it puts Jewish lives at risk.
Beyond that it is murdering countless Palestinians, humans, children. Not all Hamas! They are bombing school, hospitals, creating starvation campaigns. We treat our animals better that Israel is treating the Palestinians (who you insist on calling the “local arabs.”)
Hello! There were people who lived in the land of Israel before the Zionist movement began. Large swaths of them. Arab Jews, muslims and christians. And the Zionist movement aimed to change that. To wipe the face of the map of the “bad human product” sitting in the land. These were people, families, communities, moved by force or threat from their homes and not allowed to return.
And yet any American with a dream can get a slice of land in Palestine. White Americans who ARE safe in the US can just pick up and go to a land that isn’t there’s and hasn’t been for milenia and claim it as their “birthright.” While Palestinians sit in an open air prison, in horrific conditions, not made that way because of tunnels or Hamas, but because of Israeli blockades among other factors. All funded of course by US and all in the interest of the US and their allies. This has almost nothing to do with Judaism, it’s a convient excuse for the west to claim a strategic land and military base. And cover up their genocide and defend any criticism of it with the claim of antisemitism.
This is not a Jewish state. This is a genocidal nationalist movement made to further US global interests. And now we are losing Jewish lives and wasting time we could be learning Torah and doing actual mitzvos talking about this
But here I am, because honestly I do see this as a mitvza, to bring people to see the light here. It’s deeply upsetting how far klal yisrael has gone off the derech on this issue. Ready to defend a literal genocide. For what??? Hashem protects we don’t need the murderous IDF.@yankel berel
Me ashamed of myself? You are resorting to questioning my Jewish lineage because of my belief systems. And using some pretty vile language too.
I’ll have you know I have yichus that goes back generations to the middle east, in communities that lived in harmony with Muslims. Unlike most of these white european Jewish Zionists who thought they could stroll right in and take land that wasn’t there’s and wipe out anyone standing in the way. These Zionists also weren’t too kind to Jews who were actually living in the region for centuries. Abuse towards mizrachi Jews from European Zionists has been well documented.
Not every Jewish historical story was the one you are describing ie. Christian and European anti-Semitism. Not everyone secretly hates Jews or wants to murder us. I deeply feel this is propaganda used to control our people and instill fear of the goyim within us, when we should be more focused on serving Hashem and being a light onto the nations, not terrified of the nations!
Your also comparing multiple credible organizations including organizations within Israel who credibly claim this is a genocide, to the idea of racist blood libel. This is not blood libel. This is if anything a repeat of the dynamics that once destroyed our “flesh and blood.”
One group as all the power and is deciding who’s lives are worth saving and who should be treated like a pest, or an infection needed to be weeded out. Sound familiar? Would you be surprised if I told you I was talking about the dynamic between Zionists and Palestinians?
Honestly I blame the US here more than I do Zionists I think the US is using the Zionist story and the defense of “antisemitism” as a very obvious cover to accomplish their goals in the region re: financial interests.
And in this it is many of our Jewish brothers and sisters who are risking their lives to support this lie. Everyday. It’s horrific honestly really sad that they are caught in the middle here.
I pray this is resolved quickly and deeply support a one state one vote solution to do this. We can live in peace with our Muslim neighbors. It is possible.
@yankel berelI
Blatant lies?
Multiple agencies outside and inside of Israel have named this as a genocide. Not sure where the lie is?
Those are important resources and I appreciate the thorough rebuttal.
I will say that our own Torah contains some not so flattering lines about how we think of goyim and what will occur to the surrounding nations.
While perhaps it’s not as explicit, there are those that can take the lines in our Torah and say that they are supremest and view Jews as superior life forms and goyim as akin to animals. There are also those that can say we have direct Torah commandments to take that land for ourselves, and that Zionism as a whole is a genocidal religious Torah based ideology.
We do not explicitly say we want to “kill all muslims” in our Torah (although many in Israel do talk about killing the arabs which is disturbing when you think of the existence of Arab Jews).
Still many times Palestinians have been compared to Amalek, a group we are clearly instructed to wipe out in its entirety (ie. Religiously motivated genocide).As well the current situation is not one in witch their goals are to wipe us out. The people of Gaza are having their food, health care, housing and education systems threatened and destroyed. Your naming one bombing in 1994, this is constant daily bombardment coming from the Zionist side. This is a human rights issue. And there have been countless violations here of Torah law and international law.
It is also clear that one nation has immensely more funding, support and power. Despite the fear mongering about the safety of Jews in the US, the US government continues to fund Israel well disproportionally to Palestine (billions per year vs millions). This is not just Trump, Biden and other neo-liberal Democrats did the same.
While it’s possible (albeit unlikely) that the socialist parties in the US around the world cut funding to this genocide, it is clear their policies and ideologies are about supporting the vulnerable, not harming yidden.
@square_root and @yankel berel
I guess I’ll be roasting with the rest of the IDF and the genocide supporters in the name of klal yisrael. Also why do you assume you are chatting with a man here sir?
Ungrateful? Mamash I am so grateful to the abeshter for giving me my life and ability to live and practice here in the Arsot habrit. If I am not safe here than where am I safe? Israel’s government in it’s current form does not exist without US financial support. If this country turns on Jews we aren’t safe there either.
What I’m not grateful for is the murder of civilians and children in Gaza when we already have the protection of Hashem.
We don’t need to murder to earn that protection. If anything it puts Jewish lives at risk in the IDF in ertz yisroel and around the world.
The Zionist genocidal Ideologies have infected countless yiddim who would be focused on learning Torah and making lives for Jews around them better.
Instead they now are caught ideologically defending a genocide, teaching these practices to their children and bringing hatred upon yiddim from every corner of the world.
And then they call any critique of it antisemitism. Yet here I am a proud yid criticizing Zionism and the genocide it is inflicting. Would you call me an antisemite too? For wanting to protect my fellow yiddim from putting their lives at risk? For wanting to not support genocide and murder of civilians?
@yankel berel
I am unsure the connection your trying to make
The Houthi’s had nothing to do with South African apartheid
Nor is the existence (or non existence) of Jew-hatred within that community relevant to this discussion.
If the parallel you were trying to make was that “black south africans didn’t hate whites like Hamas hates jews”
I would combat that (or at least the perspective of that), strongly.
White’s in apartheid South Africa were TERRIFIED of what integration of the blacks would be like if integrated into their society
They feared crime, violence, and revenge, after years of oppression.
While certainly said years of oppression created some (understandable) sense of hostility between the Black community of South Africa and their White abusers, these fears were mostly UNFOUNDED, and ultimately did not result in nearly the damage feared upon integration. For the most part integration in South Africa has been a very successful endeavor for all involved.If this story sounds familiar its why the comparisons are often made.
On one hand you have a supremest state, that fears the people they oppressed will revolt if there is every an attempt at integration (one state one vote)Hamas does not explicitly “hate jews” if they did they would be sponsoring international violence against Jewish people. They (understandably) harbor (in my opinion) righteous anger against their Israeli genociders. The same way we “hate” Nazis. Is it wrong for a Jew to hate a Nazi? Especially a Jew who survived (or is currently surviving) the holocaust. This is an active genocide, and totally anti-torah values.
For the Jewish nishamot, and the human beings that Hashem created that live in Palestine (including babies and children of all ages), this is an issue that is pressing and needs to be resolved as soon as possible. For the safety of everyone involved.
I think ujm’s point, is how the kids say it today “totally based”
I’d only correct, that as a sephardi arab jew I do not appreciate people calling this a “zionist arab conflict” I am arab, this is offensive and erases my history and mamash years of helige connection to the abeishter through arabic culture and practice (see keter aram soba) and living in relative peace with muslims in arab lands prior to 1947. Or as my ansestors would say “habibi things were great, now come have some lachmegine!”
Hamas does not hate jewish people, they hate zionists who stole their land and murdered their people. One state, one vote, worked following the end of apartheid in South Africa. It sounds like a good plan. I pray it has much haslacha.
@MacherBoy Exactly! This is the question here we are talking about it. Is this safe for yiddim to even discuss openly?
Still confused does The Borei Olam love migrants or not?
THIS IS OUR BIGGEST CRISIS RIGHT NOW MAMASH
The more I looked into it, one of the major reasons for OTD was not participating in the mamash murderous genocidal anti-torah israeli army (as horrific as it is) but more so that people (in the IDF, in yeshiva or wherever) have too much access to the internet which tells them things like “the actual history of Judiasm” saying terrible things like moshe rabienu “likely never existed” and that “the torah is a book of myths”
I can’t sleep thinking just how close people are to accessing this stuff. Two clicks and a google away. Anyone who can get there hand on a smartphone has AI or “Apirkores Incorporated” on their phone ready to answer them. I’m scared about the future of klal yisrael.Yes honestly appreciate your approach things are making more sense, baruch Hashem I think i got this!
I am still a bit confused mamash though where your drawing lines, you say “every kid” has attraction for the opposite gender and thats “universal” when we know thats not true for every kid.
As for the other things I’ve mentioned, kids are reporting transgender issues all over the country (5% of young adults in the US is not a small number)!
So im still confused on how waiting for them to come to us is different in this situation, then waiting for a girl to come forward in a school that doesnt teach about any healthy feelings of attraction at all.
In both cases silence is potentially harmful. In the later case, from what I understand, this could be pikuach nefesh situation that we are letting happen with our silence. According to your logic, what ben or bas torah is going to feel safe talking about it if we dont talk about it first. Or at the very least talk to parents about how to talk to kids. As you are saying these are things kids feel, these arent things we are “introducing” to them. Only we are bringing them language to talk about this safely and in a Torah context.
“These feelings of attraction aren’t created by talking about them – they already exist whether we acknowledge them or not. That’s how Hashem created human beings” – Your quote earlier.
Same logic is it not? Even if its a relatively small number, are these neshamot not also important? Isn’t the silence your advocating against just as, if not more harmful for these kids?
I’m confused here. Isn’t socialism just focused on housing food and healthcare? Like providing basic needs for people. And what happened to loving the ger?
Just because some piece of paper says their illegal? Did all our ancestors get to every safe haven “legally” while fleeing the Holocaust or other violence. Haven’t we seen the horrors of various countries turning away Jewish migrants seeking safety after the Holocaust?
These are not yiddim, but what if they are wouldn’t we protect them? Even if not they are still Ben Adam no? Part of the niflas haborei? Does the abeishter check their papers in shamayim?
I don’t want at the end of my life to get to the heavenly courts and hear that I refused to help people hungry, homeless and looking for work and a safe place to stay. And the conditions they send these people to chas v shalom we shouldn’t ever see this.
And you’ll say “these are murders and criminals” I’m not so sure if the facts agree with your feelings there. Lots of these people have not committed any crazy crimes. They said many things about yiddim in the shoah too …
And with what the US did to many of these countries they came from historically, Hashem yishmor. I realize a lot of people with these opinions are anti-torah, but my allegiance is not to democrat or socialist or to the arsot habrit, it’s to Emes!
Honestly I’m glad the US is protecting us yiddim now but with policies like this we could be next! My allegiance is to the abeishter and protecting his creations. Not to any country or party!
So if I got this correct your saying that we should have compassion for normal healthy feelings discussed and grounded in Torah and Torah values so that they don’t go elsewhere to get this info, or feel alone or invalidated in normal healthy feelings and chas v’shalom be lead to do aveiros or doubt in the Torah for answers? After reading your words and learning more about these “feelings” I think I can agree with this.
At the same time I’m a bit confused in your logic. If you say “let’s talk about healthy feelings so they don’t feel alone or go astray” shouldn’t we say the same about non-Torah urges!!!
Now that I think about it, why aren’t we talking about the other kinds of feelings that kids experience? The “gay or trans” or whatever it’s called. From what I’m reading it says they start at a young age same as the other “healthy feelings.” From your logic, if I have it right, we should be ready and prepare our children so they don’t look elsewhere for this info! “Phones, friends or the street” as you said…
Like if your saying your main concern is that feelings happens, and they will learn them from non-torah sources if we don’t talk about it, shouldn’t we also discuss the other feelings, even in just a way where we are teaching our Torah values!
Like a conversation from Rabbeim,
“hey you may have these feelings. Our Torah perspective tells us that these actions are aveiros, but if it’s happening, we want you to know you are not alone in feeling them and you are safe to discuss this with your rebbi.”
Maybe that can work to stop these precious yiddim form learning from dangerous sources or chas v’shalom from going OTD and feel less alone! Honestly I just want the best for these precious heligeh yidden and to protect these precious neshamot. I’m scared though.
@kingdavid
I’m trying to chap what you’re saying, but I’m getting nervous, mamash.If we say every “feeling” teenagers have is from Hashem and needs to be talked about openly in schools so they don’t feel shame… that’s a very slippery slope, no? Because today it’s “natural” — tomorrow the same logic gets used for all kinds of feelings we shouldn’t even mention.
And you’re saying silence is dangerous… does that mean we have to start giving everyone chinuch about all their feelings now? Even the ones we don’t talk about in normal homes??
I deeply feel these feelings should not be talked about in schools, and i don’t know anywhere. How are we really going to distinguish between “normal feelings” and this shtus being spoken about by “modern therapists” they certainly don’t distinguish between them. According to them “gay or lesbian feelings don’t go away,” and neither does “gender dysphoria” or whatever they are calling it, and that it “cannot be channeled” as your saying. The “only effective treatment” is chas’v shalom is letting them “live their truth” and things like “Gender affirming care.” They say the “affirming surgeries have only a 1% regret rate” and that this approach is “evidenced based” and that “any attempt to guide people to channel these feelings is dangerous, and can have potentially devastating mental health outcomes.” Mishugas. My heart breaks from what they are calling care these days. Mamash i pray for these poor confused yidden daily.
And so you go and tell one bas torah her feelings are normal to share, and encourage sharing, but what do we do when she shares feelings like this? What do we tell her? Did Hashem not make her this way? And if he did, what do we say its “yetzer hara” or a “nisayon”? Apparently they call that “systemic religious abuse” in modern therapy or wherever else it is your learning the “compassionate” language you are using. You make it sound nice but its mamash dangerous the ideas we are putting in their head with approaches like yours.
“Natural Teenage attraction” “Normal feelings” How do we stop this once we start “validating.” You think they’ll stop at just Torah approved feelings, Its frightening honestly. Hashem should have rachmanus on klal yisrael.
Normal feelings? Says who? “Modern therapists” Lo alienu it’s talk like this that puts all our kids at risk. Next thing you know your normalizing all kinds of feelings including chas v’shalom we should never have to say out loud but who knows what goes through their heads. Girls with girls, boys with boys. And worse boys saying they want to be girls. And they’ll call this “normal healthy thoughts that should never be pathalogized” they’ll say these people deserve “compassion” “love” “validation.” Hashem yishmor.
Honestly scares me about the future of chinuch and the fate of klal yisrael with opinions like this.
Whats so bad is it opens a door of communication with ANYONE chas v’shalom
a window that allows you to explore your emotions with other people
God forbid, maybe even find out that you have FEELINGS!
“Feelings of an almost human nature” – Rav Shalom Barrett z’l in his famous writings HaKotelWith texting you can talk to anyone, about anything, at any time
without supervision from parents, rabbeim, and other authority figures
The risks here should be obvious
you can’t trust yourself to navigate this world without proper guidance chas v’shalom this can be very dangerous
for obvious reasons like tniuz and worse
but even further, chas v’shalom you don’t know what people may text you
information your rabbeim never approved
even if you only text mamash helegeh yidden
maybe they went OTD,
maybe they don’t even know their sharing dangerous information for proper yiddin
god forbid information about anti-torah topics, (the LGBwatevers)
before long you may come to even stop believing in torah moshe m’sinai chas v’shalom these apikores’ should rot in gehenom
how dare they make people question the emes of the torah
and actually look into the historical “facts”
mamash todays world is scary.
yidden are three google clicks away from accessing “information” about the “actual historical origins” of the torah
it is truly frightening what can happen Hashem yishmorWith Hashem’s help you will avoid texting and the perils above, much hatzlacha the world is. a crazy place today